NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #38

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35
Thread 36 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378031-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-36
Thread 37: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378200-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-37

Fifer : they ca' Deuchars "IPA", bit it's jist a 70 shilling abdy kens that. Edinburgh Callie posh loddies hid tae gie it a clever * name ken. Ah deh ken Pete masel but ma neebor Wee Jim wis on the auld ERI refurb wi the guy. It's cried "The Quarter Mile" noo. If ye're ever visiting a pal on the sixth flair overlookin the Meadies, ah wid be careful flushin the loo, that's what Pete telt Jim. Mebbe jist stop at the Doactirs on the wey ken.

DU used the term in evidence to the ET in February which is why NC is testing it on other witnesses

Dr Upton replied: “The term biologically female or biologically male is completely nebulous. It has no defined or agreed meaning in science, as far as I’m aware. I’m not a robot, so I am biological and my identity is female. Without wanting to appeal to the dictionary too much, I’m biologically female.”
......
Dr Upton added: “Not all those things are what you might call concordant with the other. There are very few people who don’t think understanding of some aspect of somebody’s biology is important in some situations. But there is no agreed definition of biological sex. It’s a nebulous dog whistle.”

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/02/10/im-biologically-female-insists-trans-nhs-doctor-born-male/

Other tabs I have open on my phone: this one, and several other threads like it (thanks nauticant). The herald live blog. And 5 o clock apron’s recipe for squashed courgettes

6 people were on the email chain. Apparently Upton was the seventh.

Not only was DU apparently going to be included in writing trans policy. But the fact he was included in emails between witnesses in his case! If this isn't favouring and steering an investigation, I don't know what is.

Also every time I've had to write a statement it's had to be my own words, completed by me alone.

The mere idea of asking management for feedback and tips on how to write it or what to include is ludicrous. It should be YOUR statement. Not one completed with the help of those who will be investigating. I really can't get over this.

For light relief ...

(hopefully thislink to the relevant clip will work)

This waiting thing is worse than waiting for season 7 of The Walking Dead.

"In politics, a dog whistle is the use of coded or suggestive language in political messaging to garner support from a particular group without provoking opposition. The concept is named after ultrasonic dog whistles, which are audible to dogs but not humans." (Wikipedia)

Upton claims binary, immutable biological sex is "nebulous" because that's a key belief of the gender ideology cult. They want us to believe that sex is in fact vague, unreliable and uncertain, so should not carry any weight in discussions about policy & rights. Instead self-proclaimed gender identity should take its place.

From TT

We're still waiting to go in following a private session but have no news on when that will be at present.

Thanks to everyone who explained I think I get it now.

Earlier in the week I thought they were doing well with timings and everything were on track but the Fife statement and potentially disclosure issues have really eaten into the time.

Well I've lost my bet on what time it will start

To be fair the chance of the tribunal starting on time is a bit higher than the chance of George RR Martin writing something today.

The mere idea of asking management for feedback and tips on how to write it or what to include is ludicrous. It should be YOUR statement. Not one completed with the help of those who will be investigating. I really can't get over this.

Doesn't everybody who appears have to swear that the statement they have made and is submitted into evidence is theirs alone?

I believe he’s very much enjoying it, all the attention is on him, and like a two year old boy he doesn’t care whether it’s positive or negative, as long as it’s all about him. Me, me, me, that’s what this men’s rights movement should be called, #ME-ME-ME or #HIM-HIM-HIM

Perhaps they are discussing what can be admitted as evidence from the various IT experts. Seems likely there is information JR wants kept out.

Oh yes. Offered to help IB write the guidance, as I recall. It came out in her evidence.

Sandwich time! I need something to bridge the gap to proceedings starting

SP & KS arriving at court today

https://x.com/iain_masterton/status/1947974708160593948

It's 12.01. still yet to start. There'll be some tea breaks, a break for lunch and then home time. I can't see anything other than NC x examination of KS getting down today which is going to cause even further delays.
We're already several witnesses behind.

Does this mean dictionaries are anti-trans? Silly question - the reaction to KJks dictionary definition billboard told us this already but still strange to see

Class is a huge factor, as is a sheltered upbringing. A lot of medics will have been in the private-school-to-first-job-as-a-qualified-doctor pipeline, via a relatively prestigious university, surrounded by equally privileged peers. Not all, and it's definitely getting more diverse in terms of socioeconomic background. But, for a lot of baby doctors, a nurse is the first person in their career that's a) not been impressed with them as a default and b) given them a telling, while not being a direct superior/ someone they want to suck up to (i.e. their consultant/ lecturer etc). It's jarring for them, and leads to a bit of a fork in the road in how they get on with their teams going forward.

DU and KS couldn't take it, it seems.

from Herald
12:05pm
Naomi Cunningham, representing Sandie Peggie in this tribunal, said yesterday that she needed "at least" another hour to grill Dr Kate Searle.
Jane Russell KC, acting on behalf of NHS Fife and Dr Beth Upton, will then have the opportunity to ask any follow up questions before we even begin with the second witness Maggie Currer.
Given today is another very late start, don't be surprised if Ms Currer's evidence runs into tomorrow.
Unfortunately we have very little information about the nature of the delay, but it is likely to be procedural issues again, including discussing witness timetabling.

No. They have to say under oath that the signature on the witness statement is theirs and that the contents are “true to the best of their knowledge and belief.”

Most people’s witness statements are drafted with the help of solicitors. A huge proportion of the population isn’t capable of stringing enough words together in sentences to make a cogent witness statement unaided.

A witness can be ordered to provide prior versions of their witness statement though, if there’s a suspicion it has been juiced up.

It’s performative time wasting, you see it all the time in sport, the Italian goalkeeper FAFO last night during the women’s Euros match. It always makes me cringe as it’s so obvious.