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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #29

1000 replies

nauticant · 16/07/2025 20:46

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25
Thread 26: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5335861-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-26
Thread 27: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5372582-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-27
Thread 28: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5374630-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-28

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Shortshriftandlethal · 17/07/2025 11:33

Yetanothernewname101 · 17/07/2025 11:31

I was thinking that too. Change of surname, go do a training course to qualify as something else, give it 5 years and she will hopefully be doing ok.
I hope she has union support, this is something that she probably never expected might happen when she took the job etc.

I'm pretty certain she'll have union support, unlike many women and certainly SP when the chips are down.

BezMills · 17/07/2025 11:34

MarieDeGournay · 17/07/2025 11:33

Pity DrU isn't as wise and philosophical as you are about the hand he was dealt😐

True enough that

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 17/07/2025 11:34

GCITC · 17/07/2025 11:30

Yes, try a different browser. Working fine for me on Microsoft Edge. Get nothing on Firefox.

I'm fine in Firefox. Yesterday morning, nothing worked - didn't get a glimpse 9f the courtroom, and no sound either. Early afternoon, it all started working; I hadn't changed any settings.

I'm a bit disappointed we didn't have this view of the witness when it was DU. I have a fine view of GM's excellent head of hair.

Vegemiteandhoneyontoast · 17/07/2025 11:35

Removal of a jumper depend on whether or not it's to go in the wash right away. If it's not, I'll wriggle my arms out first but, if it is, then it's hem first and pull off inside out in one swift move.

Needspaceforlego · 17/07/2025 11:35

Shortshriftandlethal · 17/07/2025 11:08

She is a grown adult with a highly paid and responsible position. She is also responsibile for examining he own position and not going along with group think. The nonsense she has come out with - knowing full well that it is nonsense.

Yes I get what you are saying.
Shes completely out her depth. Seems to have been handed a big role she wasn't experienced enough to deal with.
Nobody likes being grilled at work, she's spent a day being publicly grilled by one of the best in the business. It's probably a taste of the amount of pressure Sandie has been under for months

As much as I joked yesterday about 2 Islas and a Nicola in a changing room. Give them a taste of what they have put other women into.
I really wouldn't want her to do anything stupid.

InvisibleDragon · 17/07/2025 11:35

A bit of context on datix. When I worked on a ward where we needed to complete a lot of them, the advice generally was:

  • do it as soon after the incident as possible
  • the details of the incident should be factual and as close to verbatim as possible
  • classifying the exact type of datix/incident is your best guess - the datix will be reviewed by senior staff who can reclassify if you got it wrong

So you had to write things like "Patient shouted at nurse in charge to 'Fuck off' and then threw the cup of water on the floor' rather than "patient used expletives and damaged ward property" or "patient was rude to nurse in charge"

So GM would likely be expecting the datix to contain accurate factual information about what happened in the CR.

ickky · 17/07/2025 11:35

😂

PrettyDamnCosmic · 17/07/2025 11:36

HugTreesNow · 17/07/2025 11:19

Mine had this on an ipad on chrome. But worked OK on safari. However i think they locked the observer remote rooms when the ET started today. Maybe try again at lunch?

I joined late this morning (after 11:00) but only needed to wait a couple of minutes before I was admitted.

prh47bridge · 17/07/2025 11:36

Merrymouse · 17/07/2025 10:14

Question to lawyers - what is the purpose of making this kind of allegation when questioning a witness?

Is it that this kind of argument needs to be put to the witness if it is to be used when summarising the case at the end?

Is it to prompt a reaction?

Is the argument really being presented to the judge rather than the witness?

From my point of view as an observer, it seems obvious that the witness will just disagree.

If you want to allege that a witness has done something, you have to put it to them in cross examination. You know that they will almost certainly deny the allegation but that doesn't matter. If you don't ask the question you can't make the allegation at all.

GreenFriedTomato · 17/07/2025 11:36

OMG Naomi 🤣 🤣 🤣

MyAmpleSheep · 17/07/2025 11:37

CriticalCondition · 17/07/2025 11:28

I agree that it's a bit off making 'fun' of IB's married surname which no doubt is completely unremarkable in her husband's country.

Would it make a difference even if it was a remarkable surname in her husband’s country?

ickky · 17/07/2025 11:37

From TT

NC - IB said yesterday that she was unsure what sex she was because she had not had her chromosomes tested. Are you also uncertain.
GM - i believe I am female
NC - and do you believe that's medically important and relevant information about you
GM - what am I meant to say? yes.

😂 God, I love NC

BezMills · 17/07/2025 11:37

From TT

J - we've had a comment from a remote observer, that they can't see the witness. We moved the witness to the current position to reduce the distraction from the stenographers. We will maintain the current arrangement and then think about it at lunch

Fifer : will a fuck think aboot it, fucks sake min

UtopiaPlanitia · 17/07/2025 11:37

BezMills · 17/07/2025 11:31

ye can only play the cairds ye'r dealt eh

Your excellent translations are putting me in mind of that giant among men, and legend in the annals of cheeseburghery, Bob Servant 😂

Merrymouse · 17/07/2025 11:37

prh47bridge · 17/07/2025 11:36

If you want to allege that a witness has done something, you have to put it to them in cross examination. You know that they will almost certainly deny the allegation but that doesn't matter. If you don't ask the question you can't make the allegation at all.

Thank you!

That makes sense.

Shortshriftandlethal · 17/07/2025 11:37

Needspaceforlego · 17/07/2025 11:35

Yes I get what you are saying.
Shes completely out her depth. Seems to have been handed a big role she wasn't experienced enough to deal with.
Nobody likes being grilled at work, she's spent a day being publicly grilled by one of the best in the business. It's probably a taste of the amount of pressure Sandie has been under for months

As much as I joked yesterday about 2 Islas and a Nicola in a changing room. Give them a taste of what they have put other women into.
I really wouldn't want her to do anything stupid.

Such as?

Let people be accountable for their own actions and behaviour. I'm sure she'll have plenty to reflect on when her time in the hot seat is finished. Nobody else is responsible for what she decides to do, or how she responds.

Waitwhat23 · 17/07/2025 11:38

Fifer : look a deh mind yes gaun up the pub, but deh tear the erse oot ay it

😆 Just laughed out loud in a busy cafe at this.

Also interesting how I would have written that in Edinbra lingo - similar but with wee changes. An just over the watter!

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/07/2025 11:39

CompleteGinasaur · 17/07/2025 08:51

It makes perfect sense if you believe in gender ideology, though - trans women can rape trans men..

Exactly. It’s a bit unclear from TT and may have been clearer to observers, but I assumed that formed part of what she was saying there.

MarieDeGournay · 17/07/2025 11:40

GreenFriedTomato · 17/07/2025 11:36

OMG Naomi 🤣 🤣 🤣

But re the important issue of the moment: is she wearing a jumper?😃

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 17/07/2025 11:41

I see Naomi is in no mood to be trifled with! She is brilliant.

GreenFriedTomato · 17/07/2025 11:41

MarieDeGournay · 17/07/2025 11:40

But re the important issue of the moment: is she wearing a jumper?😃

You've lost me now. I need more coffee

Boiledbeetle · 17/07/2025 11:41

MarieDeGournay · 17/07/2025 11:40

But re the important issue of the moment: is she wearing a jumper?😃

I think it's her arms we can see so no it's a long sleeved shirt

prh47bridge · 17/07/2025 11:42

NebulousSupportPostcard · 17/07/2025 10:25

In terms of procedure, am I right in thinking that if JR questions a witness first, we can assume they were called to be a witness by the Responsdents?

So Fife called Isla Bumba and today's witness to court, not Sandie Peggie's side?

Correct.

ickky · 17/07/2025 11:42

MarieDeGournay · 17/07/2025 11:40

But re the important issue of the moment: is she wearing a jumper?😃

All I can see is sleeves, but it appears that she is sporting a smashing blouse.

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