NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #28

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25
Thread 26: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5335861-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-26
Thread 27: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5372582-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-27

NC highlighting the lack of balance between competing rights, i.e. women's. But also highlighting the slipshod, ad hoc nature of DEI policies/no policies..

I was just following the leeming in front of me off the cliff.

from TT

NC Any thought to female staff being adversely affected

Big hesitation before IB answered

What are these steps?

It's astonishing really. But then again not.
As said, she's either lying or is woefully unfit for the role.
During my nursing career, I regularly saw 'barely qualified' nurses promoted to band 6 positions that they were woefully unprepared for. Cluelessly leading a team when they had almost zero experience or knowlege. But management gave these people the jobs because they were young, ambitious, and most importantly Yes people. They would be grateful for the promotion, get intoxicated on the power, suck up all the management spiel about how the old nurses were stuck in their ways and it was for the younger ones to lead the way. Basically do whatever management told them to.
Unlike the old dinosaurs who would cause a fuss and not let them get away with shit.

On another note, my crush on Naomi Cunningham has just been re-ignited. She is brilliant!

From TT

IB Someone who made no changes and had no logic to what they were doing, I would think otherwise.
NC But the logic. Woman in cr and man walks in saying I'm a woman and allowed to be here. Policy makes it impossible for her to object - can't distinguish between tw and man with

My bad - sorry - but thanks for the explanation

They didn’t think about Sandie for one second did they? She just didn’t matter in their eyes, they were so busy falling over themselves to be chief handmaiden she became almost invisible. Even thought I know this sh** happens it never ceases to appall me how many women do the ‘pick me’ dance in order to gain approval from these creepy, mediocre men.

"No reason for me to think that."

I dunno, I can think of a pretty effing big reason to think of that!

We have governance around subscriptions to our Substack and are happy to accept contributions that way. We appreciate everyone's support. We don't want to exhaust our supporters in case we end up needing to crowd fund for a JR or to appeal a ruling that denies us access.

Thank you very much!

I had not thought of this before but I guess that IB is not frontline staff and so has never had to undress in front of biologically male staff before.

The impact of her decision is somewhat different to someone that has to change clothes more than one a day

This is unbelievable

I know IBINAL, but she’s an EDI lead on a decent salary and supposed to have a good knowledge of the EqA as per the JE. She’s never even looked at it by sounds of things. She’s relied solely on other trusts’ policies and the ECHR guidance :/

So she essentially was the DEI trans lead.

How these demands interacted with the other protected characteristics just wasn't considered at all.

I think Isla will be in need of a stiff drink after this.

It's showing exactly what a shit show Fife were

The parties (I think the C) have secured funding for a transcript.

Aka

'yeah we had no f idea what we were doing. We just made it up as we went along. Not influenced by stonewall who we'd never heard of of course. We just thought it'd be ok to assume that everyone would be fine with it and they'd be absolutely no problems with letting a man into the women's changing room, because no one was ever going to complain. Cos women aren't allowed to complain because that's not being very nice and if they aren't very nice we'll just assume it's gross misconduct because the 'nice transperson' told me.'

That's literally the place NHS Fife have arrived at.

From TT

IB Someone who made no changes and had no logic to what they were doing, I would think otherwise.
NC But the logic. Woman in cr and man walks in saying I'm a woman and allowed to be here. Policy makes it impossible for her to object - can't distinguish between tw and man with a ponytail.
IB We didn't have a policy in Fife.
NC Your advice - don't have to call it a policy
IB If someone has a concern should raise it with their management and steps would then be taken.
NC Being surprised by a man in cr would be worse if the woman had history of sex assault.
IB Any concerns, should raise with line management.
NC Do you know proportion of staff have suffered sex assault in past
IB Don't have that info
NC You don't collect it
IB No
NC Do you know how many women in your staff would be likely to have suffered pas sex assault

I understand why IB is saying what she is saying, but suspect Fife NHS will find it difficult to justify the continued existence of her job.

I can't keep up! Has NC brought Pete the Plumber into the CR again?

Just seen a photo of who I believe is the fragrant Isla.

Unless she's a particularly youthful looking 50 year old (in which case, good for her), I was expecting someone a bit older to hold the position of 'Equality and Human Rights Lead Officer'. She looks like she might have been in university at the start of the pandemic.

IB If someone has a concern should raise it with their management and steps would then be taken

And here we are at the tribunal of a woman who did that!

This does seem to be the way of it, though, in all these institutions.

They get together, have a little chat, all agree that they can't see any problem with letting the TW have everything they want. But nothing minuted or formally agreed as policy. Just all by the back door.

But SP DID raise her concerns w management, who passed them up.

@rebmacesrevda Not yet

Fingers are crossed for poor pete

Who made IB the sorting hat who gets to decide who is truly-trans?