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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #28

1000 replies

nauticant · 16/07/2025 12:09

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25
Thread 26: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5335861-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-26
Thread 27: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5372582-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-27

OP posts:
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27
Merrymouse · 16/07/2025 13:59

murasaki · 16/07/2025 13:49

How an EDI lead doesn't know about Stonewall is baffling to me.

https://www.nhsfife.org/about-us/equality-and-human-rights/protected-characteristics/lgbtqiplus/

Stonewall Scotland are on their resources page.

LGBTQI+ | NHS Fife

NHS Fife

https://www.nhsfife.org/about-us/equality-and-human-rights/protected-characteristics/lgbtqiplus/

Needspaceforlego · 16/07/2025 14:00

GreenFriedTomato · 16/07/2025 13:53

I'm sure this has been said a million times before but particularly given the subject in hand, I think she (Isla Bumba) has such an unfortunate name.

Every time I see it, I can't help think of the other Isla B

I keep thinking about bumbling your way through something.

rebmacesrevda · 16/07/2025 14:00

Boiledbeetle · 16/07/2025 13:58

Naomi getting into her rhythm now

Stalking her prey. How long before the fatal strike?

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 16/07/2025 14:00

Peregrina · 16/07/2025 13:57

Hundred per cent i gave that advice.

A contrast to the earlier, I don't recall's. Classic Post Office Management response there.

The juxtaposition is quite stark - there does not seem to be much light between I don't recall and Hundred percent I gave that advice

BettyBooper · 16/07/2025 14:00

From TT

IB I based advice on statutory code of practice.
[missed]
NC If not make up clothes, etc, what is it to live as the opposite sex
[misse]
NC NHow find out if someone is trans
IB Their view of own body and how id
NC So only their view
IB If someone said they were trans I would belive
NC If they lie
IB Anyone can lie
NC If a man is saying he's a tw as a lie, how would you know
IB Their actions, if they didn't fit
NC Is there something objective that would inform
IB Others may judge ppl on how they present but I don't.
NC You know nothing c this person, but if he says he's a tw he can use f

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2025 14:01

Can anyone spell Grifter?

This is an NHS Grifter. Who probably will be made redundant fairly soon I would imagine.

Or promoted to Head of Grifting.

She has at least failed at the interview for NHS Fife Head of Teflon Department role.

chilling19 · 16/07/2025 14:01

NC surfacing the sheer idiocy of the trans argument. There is no way to tell, but I believe them anyway, so let’s open that door to men in women’s changing rooms.

BettyBooper · 16/07/2025 14:02

From TT

NC You know nothing c this person, but if he says he's a tw he can use f spaces
Yes, and a tm can use...
NC So a tw can use facilities for w and a tm can use ss facilities for men.
NC The rule you were operating, even if not written - all staff allowed to use facilities according to their GI
IB Yes
NC What did you look to to base that advice

NotAtMyAge · 16/07/2025 14:02

FingleGlen · 16/07/2025 13:45

I need demand the lol emoji back...

Don't we all? We also need a shocked emoji. 😮

Butchyrestingface · 16/07/2025 14:03

These Dr Upton types and their handmaidens keep getting their arses handed to them in industrial tribunals and the courts.

It's glorious. 😎

murasaki · 16/07/2025 14:03

BettyBooper · 16/07/2025 14:00

From TT

IB I based advice on statutory code of practice.
[missed]
NC If not make up clothes, etc, what is it to live as the opposite sex
[misse]
NC NHow find out if someone is trans
IB Their view of own body and how id
NC So only their view
IB If someone said they were trans I would belive
NC If they lie
IB Anyone can lie
NC If a man is saying he's a tw as a lie, how would you know
IB Their actions, if they didn't fit
NC Is there something objective that would inform
IB Others may judge ppl on how they present but I don't.
NC You know nothing c this person, but if he says he's a tw he can use f

But she does judge on how they present, if she believes in self declaration of being a woman purely due to wearing some mascara and a skirt and saying they are one.

BettyBooper · 16/07/2025 14:03

From TT

IB all the policies I looked at. Was general across the board.
NC Did you give any thought to any other ppl whose rights might be affected by that.
IB Statutory code of guidance seemed reasonable, boards were using it, didn't seem to be problematic
NC Any thought to female

Boiledbeetle · 16/07/2025 14:03

rebmacesrevda · 16/07/2025 14:00

Stalking her prey. How long before the fatal strike?

Death by a 1000 cuts today

maltravers · 16/07/2025 14:03

I feel a Groupthink defence coming on. Everyone else was doing it m’lud.

Bluebootsgreenboots · 16/07/2025 14:04

That is the Q I’ve been waiting MONTHS to get the answer to - where did you get the idea that this was policy??

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 16/07/2025 14:04

Waitwhat23 · 16/07/2025 13:58

Is it just me or are minutes normally taken at your workplace meetings? We take minutes for everything so I'm always surprised at these ET's when no-one present seems to have thought it advisable to even write a short note of what was discussed, when it's entirely likely to be contentious.

The meetings seem to be quite fast and loose - 'we had a bit of a chat on teams'

Without actual notes it seems difficult to know what has been decided in a meeting and what the associated actions are - especially as the consequences for individual's careers could be devastating

Boiledbeetle · 16/07/2025 14:04

This is shocking and a fantastic example of where be kind ends up.

murasaki · 16/07/2025 14:04

She didn't give thoughts to women as due to her role, she was never put in the position of having to undress that Sandie was. So it just didn't affect her.

maltravers · 16/07/2025 14:04

It seemed reasonable (unless you’re a woman).

BettyBooper · 16/07/2025 14:05

From TT

NC Any thought to female staff being adversely affected
IB Based my view on the code of guidance
NC So no thought to engaging women's Art 8 rights
IB No, based on statutory guide
NCNo thought to opening women up to eg sexual ..
IB Following all the other policies. No reason for me to think that.

Olderbadger1 · 16/07/2025 14:06

This absolutely sums it up - no bloody thought for women's rights to privacy or dignity in NHS Fife
NC Did you give any thought to any other ppl whose rights might be affected by that. IB Statutory code of guidance seemed reasonable, boards were using it, didn't seem to be problematic NC Any thought to female

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2025 14:06

Butchyrestingface · 16/07/2025 14:03

These Dr Upton types and their handmaidens keep getting their arses handed to them in industrial tribunals and the courts.

It's glorious. 😎

Cos every single one of them is thick as mince and incapable of thinking through in terms of risk assessment and legal implications. Because they are too busy trying to suck up to various people and 'be kind'.

So open minded their brains fell out as the phrase goes.

Waitwhat23 · 16/07/2025 14:06

From TT -

staff being adversely affected
IB Based my view on the code of guidance
NC So no thought to engaging women's Art 8 rights
IB No, based on statutory guide
NCNo thought to opening women up to eg sexual ..
IB Following all the other policies. No reason for me to think that.

They just didn't care about their female employees. That's clear.

Boiledbeetle · 16/07/2025 14:06

Isla seems rather confused. I don't think she's ever given what a man claiming to be a woman actually means in reality to other women

BettyBooper · 16/07/2025 14:06

From TT

NC You accept a man who isn't a tw to claim falsely he is
IB Anyone can claim falsely
NC Any man who is/isnt' a tw - we can't tell - can therefore use women's spaces by saying I am a tw
IB More complex. They would have to take some steps to convince are living as a tw

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