NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #28

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25
Thread 26: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5335861-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-26
Thread 27: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5372582-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-27

Room 4 now has the video in full Panavision!

Just seen it on BBC1 news

I wish they would reframe the camera so we could see Naomi

It would have been mentioned smirkily

John Swinney still has full confidence in NHS Fife, despite the fact that they conceded yesterday that SP did nothing wrong, thus rendering this entire debacle an obvious waste of time and money. The goddam moronic arrogance of him. When are these people going to stop with their denial of reality?!

From TT

NC I'm going to start with a few qs re your answers to JR. You said ED had called you for generic informal advice re a trans staff member due to join the work force.
IB Yes
NB Isn't it right that ED told you she had a f member of staff uncomfortable at sharing cr with man

Fully cleared of gross misconduct according to the beeb - only just got in so apologies if you were all already aware.

I’m only about 700 posts behind; sounds like quite a morning!

The express's take on this mornings testimony

https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/politics/sandie-peggie-case-nhs-fife-35565775?utm_source=linkCopy&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar

And presumably at some point Dr Upton has been employed as a male, so employers would need to complete information according to the P45 submitted.

If there were a gap in employment he might not supply a P45, but HMRC still holds data on birth date and sex so if there is a discrepancy between the information they hold and information submitted, it suggests at best an error that needs to be corrected.

NC I'm going to start with a few qs re your answers to JR. You said ED had called you for generic informal advice re a trans staff member due to join the work force. IB Yes NB Isn't it right that ED told you she had a f member of staff uncomfortable at sharing cr with man
IB no

Surely ED would have given some context? Otherwise how could any advice be even remotely useful (not that it was obviously). This is just not believable...

From TT

IB No
NC did have that conversation with ED
IB no
NC Confident about convo?
IB My july convo with ED was unspecific and informal
NC You were asked c how you arrived at advice given to NC. You relied on code of practice and no Fife policy. Did you give any thought to 1992 work place regs.
IB No not at the time.
NC and since
IB Could have done things differently and would by looking at more - would now be reflecting more. Society has evolved since July 2023.
NC You were taken to guidance docs. Pretty widespread that staff allowed to use facilities aligning to their GI.
NC [to bundle, NHS policy.]
NC Could we alter the air conditioning? [Judge leaves room and back - has made request]
NC NHS Highland policy - reads - t ppl may experience examples of discrimination practice. Anything in those examples that troubles you.

The Herald live reporting says it is Margaret Gribbon questioning IB, but isn't it NC?

TT are referring to NC doing cross. Herald live stream referring to solicitor Margaret Gribbon. Do we know who?

From TT

IB no
NC Is that still good advice
IB Think it's reasonable.
NC Example 2. Not to address or think of someone re their GI. Is that reasonable.
IB In terms of what individual staff think?
NC to say it's discriminatory for staff not to be able to think of someone in a way[missed]
NC Are you aware NHS Fife has been a Stonewall diversity champion
IB They are not now.
NC Are you aware of that.
IB Not the details.
NC What do you know c the Stonewall div champion scheme/
IB Don't know anything about the scheme in detail. Presumably its a kind of

Herald have changed it now to Naomi C

It's like translation, it's exhausting - BSL interpreters can only do an hour (or they used to) before needing a break. We used to have two for a half day event. There's probably two stenographers there.

Its doubtful that HMRC would notice the discrepancy

why has the judge and everyone left?

Herald have now change their live stream to NC.

How does an EDI lead not know about Stonewall Diversity Champion Scheme? Either lying or very bad at their job.

"At the time"

Reverse ferrets incoming!

From the Herald:

1:35pm
Throughout her evidence, Isla Bumba has used the term "at the time" repeatedly when answering questions about the incident.
She is asked whether she gave consideration to the 1992 Workplace Health and Safety Act.
She did not at the time, Ms Bumba replied but said "in light of everything that's happened it gives space for reflection".
In this legislation, the right to single-sex toilets must be provided.

What on earth does "it gives space for reflection" mean??
Is it code for "I should have done"??

@OhBuggerandArse Missing bundles, the search is happening now.

my life’s ambition is to never be cross examined by Naomi Cunningham.