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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #28

1000 replies

nauticant · 16/07/2025 12:09

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25
Thread 26: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5335861-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-26
Thread 27: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5372582-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-27

OP posts:
Thread gallery
27
nauticant · 16/07/2025 13:11

OhBuggerandArse · 16/07/2025 13:09

Loving it - what dialect is it from?

In my case the NE but most hits on the Internet talk about Leicester and environs.

Oh, and apparently also Lowland Scots.

OP posts:
Merrymouse · 16/07/2025 13:12

13planets · 16/07/2025 13:07

@IslandsAround and in some ways, nothing wrong with having a kindly face in the organisation who can be approached if you need a shoulder to cry on. But, when that person is also tasked with providing policy advice formally to management, a conflict of interest arises. Since Isla Bumba’s job requires insight, objectivity, appropriate behaviour and good judgement, her own conduct reflects very badly on her. Her manager should at the very least have her on a PIP for that I expect.

But agree that the problem lies with a hiring process that thought this person could manage a job like this. Ludicrous.

I think the problem might be that people (who should know better) understand DEI as just 'being kind', when in reality to balance different and opposing needs, you need authority and the ability to say no.

NeedToChangeName · 16/07/2025 13:12

Merrymouse · 16/07/2025 12:45

But as a grade 7 DEI professional, is it enough to say 'I was waiting to see what everyone else was doing' when the law was clear?

(Genuine question - am wondering whether the general chaos in Scotland is a mitigating circumstance for the board?)

I guess the law wasn't clear prior to Supreme Court case. FWS had previously lost the case at earlier stages

Sandie & team - this must be exhausting for you. Keep going !

murasaki · 16/07/2025 13:13

We know Upton doesn't have one because he said so (i seem to recall?) but we don't know if Fife ever knew that before the tribunal, and they certainly wouldn't have asked.

Merrymouse · 16/07/2025 13:13

Merrymouse · 16/07/2025 13:07

I thought the law was clear on people without a GRC.

But I wonder if NHS Fife will claim that they had no way of establishing whether Dr Upton had a GRC?

Actually they would have known that he didn't have a GRC because without one his HMRC details would have shown him as male.

123ZYX · 16/07/2025 13:14

I think Dr Upton could be recalled to give evidence depending on phone records? If this is planned, would Dr Upton have to avoid hearing other witness testimonies again?

SionnachRuadh · 16/07/2025 13:14

nauticant · 16/07/2025 13:11

In my case the NE but most hits on the Internet talk about Leicester and environs.

Oh, and apparently also Lowland Scots.

Edited

Also Norn Iron, which will match up with Lowland Scots and the NE.

Boiledbeetle · 16/07/2025 13:15

nauticant · 16/07/2025 12:53

Jane Russell KC, counsel for NHS Fife and Dr Upton.

So that's the defence with the narrative they've spun. Now we get the really interesting part of Naomi Cunningham pulling it apart.

I cannot wait.

alsoFanOfNaomi · 16/07/2025 13:15

We haven't had confirmation, have we, that Upton's phone was to be examined, and I have a vague feeling that we may have had confirmation that it wasn't? So don't get your hopes up...

Lunde · 16/07/2025 13:15

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2025 13:06

If you don't have a policy, why don't you have a policy.

If you take action in the absence of a policy you aren't doing your job properly and you are leaving yourself open to a car crash.

.... because your action is effectively producing a policy or praxis regardless of whether it is written or unwritten

NeedToChangeName · 16/07/2025 13:16

myplace · 16/07/2025 13:06

This is, once again nail biting. And I don’t have any nails left to bite not time to nibble.

I think I’m going to have to skim through and pick out articles that get published, and read your comments around them. If anyone else has any awesome ideas of how to stay in the loop without doing nothing else all day, do please let me know.

This is updated quite regularly https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/25316852.live-sandie-peggie-tribunal-nhs-fife-resumes/

Sandie Peggie employment tribunal against NHS Fife resumes

Live coverage from day 11 of the Sandie Peggie employment tribunal. The case, involving NHS Fife, centres on a disputed confrontation between the…

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/25316852.live-sandie-peggie-tribunal-nhs-fife-resumes/

Pinknotpurple · 16/07/2025 13:16

Very interesting that no one has mentioned asking Sandie for her point of view about the changing room incident. Surely that would be a starting point for them if they wanted to understand what happened and respect her GC views.

spannasaurus · 16/07/2025 13:17

Merrymouse · 16/07/2025 13:13

Actually they would have known that he didn't have a GRC because without one his HMRC details would have shown him as male.

When a new employee starts it's the employer who selects male/female on the payroll software. There would be nothing from HMRC that would confirm an employees sex

Merrymouse · 16/07/2025 13:17

NeedToChangeName · 16/07/2025 13:12

I guess the law wasn't clear prior to Supreme Court case. FWS had previously lost the case at earlier stages

Sandie & team - this must be exhausting for you. Keep going !

FWS won their case re: people who don't have a GRC.

TheKeatingFive · 16/07/2025 13:20

Placemarking

Cailin66 · 16/07/2025 13:20

Anyone know if all these people (mostly women) telling Peggie she was a bigot for not being happy to undress in front of a man had themselves ever to share a changing room with a man in the Fife hospital?

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2025 13:21

OhBuggerandArse · 16/07/2025 13:10

No Upton. Or parents of Upton.

Is that because Upton is in metaphorical hospital from having the metaphorical bus reversed over him?

ArabellaScott · 16/07/2025 13:21

'When the incident between Nurse Peggie and Dr Upton was reported via a Datix flagged as a hate incident, Bumba agreed it was “unpleasant” and “suggestive of discrimination.” But she issued no written advice, undertook no assessment, and followed up with little more than a vague suggestion to “have a chat.” She couldn’t recall if she’d spoken to key staff or simply shared a draft policy link. Even that policy - the Once for Scotland trans guidance - had never been formally adopted, and was later withdrawn under the weight of this very tribunal.

Administratively and substantively, the morning’s evidence revealed a system in which equality advice operated without records, without policies, and without accountability. NHS Fife projected the image of a rights-conscious employer, but behind that façade was procedural drift and institutional neglect. As the delays in the courtroom mirrored the inertia inside the boardroom, one truth became clear: when belief rights clashed with workplace inclusion, NHS Fife had left its staff to improvise - and take the consequences alone.'

oof.

Merrymouse · 16/07/2025 13:21

spannasaurus · 16/07/2025 13:17

When a new employee starts it's the employer who selects male/female on the payroll software. There would be nothing from HMRC that would confirm an employees sex

Sex is linked to NI number, and P45 shows the the employee as M or F.

If you put in the wrong sex, you are potentially alerting HMRC to a problem with the NI number.

This was central to the Goodwin case.

nauticant · 16/07/2025 13:22

IIRC Dr Upton wasn't directly asked whether he had a GRC but in the discussion around this point, it was clear he didn't. Had he been in possession of one, it would definitely have been mentioned.

https://x.com/tribunaltweets/status/1888922613059096786

OP posts:
alsoFanOfNaomi · 16/07/2025 13:24

IIRR he had started his transition definitely less than 2 years before the incidents in question so could not have had a GRC because of the 2 years "living as a woman".

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2025 13:26

ArabellaScott · 16/07/2025 13:21

'When the incident between Nurse Peggie and Dr Upton was reported via a Datix flagged as a hate incident, Bumba agreed it was “unpleasant” and “suggestive of discrimination.” But she issued no written advice, undertook no assessment, and followed up with little more than a vague suggestion to “have a chat.” She couldn’t recall if she’d spoken to key staff or simply shared a draft policy link. Even that policy - the Once for Scotland trans guidance - had never been formally adopted, and was later withdrawn under the weight of this very tribunal.

Administratively and substantively, the morning’s evidence revealed a system in which equality advice operated without records, without policies, and without accountability. NHS Fife projected the image of a rights-conscious employer, but behind that façade was procedural drift and institutional neglect. As the delays in the courtroom mirrored the inertia inside the boardroom, one truth became clear: when belief rights clashed with workplace inclusion, NHS Fife had left its staff to improvise - and take the consequences alone.'

oof.

Exactly.

Without an impact assessment and doing everything dynamically they CAN'T prove that they've upheld equality and fairness to all parties.

nauticant · 16/07/2025 13:26

Not that it matters in a strict sense but NHS Fife and Upton will be keen to get to the front any mitigating factors of why they were operating in delusional states, ie because they were part of The Madness of Crowds.

OP posts:
spannasaurus · 16/07/2025 13:26

Merrymouse · 16/07/2025 13:21

Sex is linked to NI number, and P45 shows the the employee as M or F.

If you put in the wrong sex, you are potentially alerting HMRC to a problem with the NI number.

This was central to the Goodwin case.

P45s are issued by employers and will show whatever sex has been entered on their payroll system.

Binglebong · 16/07/2025 13:28

Holy crap! On the news now.

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