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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #28

1000 replies

nauticant · 16/07/2025 12:09

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25
Thread 26: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5335861-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-26
Thread 27: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5372582-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-27

OP posts:
Thread gallery
27
SionnachRuadh · 16/07/2025 17:54

The bits I heard were seriously unimpressive. Is she playing dumb? Or is she actually dumb?

I don't know, but her evidence definitely had a Bart Simpson book report quality to it.

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2025 17:54

BUT BUT BUT

Upton KNOWS he's a woman.

BUT BUT BUT

Bumba DOESN'T know she's a woman.

BUT BUT BUT

Peggie says FFS, we all know which one is the man and which ones are the women and Upton and Bumba don't like it.

Which one is right?

Clue. The Supreme Court knows which two are liars.

NotAtMyAge · 16/07/2025 17:54

TerrierCollector · 16/07/2025 17:15

That was me. I was permanently banned from the sub for my troubles! The data was briefly up though!

Edited

I did something similar a few weeks ago and of course my sensible factual post didn't stay up and I was cast into outer darkness. It really is a closed bubble, with reality not being allowed to intrude in any form.

guinnessguzzler · 16/07/2025 17:55

I bet they had that headline written before she even started speaking, it was that predictable. So embarrassing.

Mermoose · 16/07/2025 17:56

So:

*Nobody knows what sex they are if they haven't had their chromosomes tested.

*Anyone who claims to be opposite to the sex they are is irrefutably correct and infallible and will never change their mind, lie, or be confused about this.

*We have different changing rooms for men and women and it's very important trans people can choose which one they want to use.

*What even are these words - men? women? - I dunno, it's just too complicated.

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2025 17:56

NotAtMyAge · 16/07/2025 17:54

I did something similar a few weeks ago and of course my sensible factual post didn't stay up and I was cast into outer darkness. It really is a closed bubble, with reality not being allowed to intrude in any form.

I would argue that the way things are going and concerns about extremism and hate (particularly homophobic related hate) start to be apparent Reddit and the UK government are set to be on a firm collision course.

DiamondThrone · 16/07/2025 17:57

I've Googled him, but am finding it hard to figure out - where would I best find Michael Foran's daily summary? Thanks.

Waitwhat23 · 16/07/2025 17:57

rebmacesrevda · 16/07/2025 17:52

Absolutely. I bet the HR admin person (band 4 or 5) knows the Equality Act better than IB does.

I'd say that pretty much any regular poster on FWR knows the EQA2010 better than HR or DEI at NHS Fife

Justabaker · 16/07/2025 17:57

Merrymouse · 16/07/2025 16:22

JR seems to be going to argue that the FWS case only had a narrow application to public boards, and doesn't apply to the H&S 1992 regs.

Not sure how that is going to be argued, but will she need a witness to do that?

I think it will probably be submissions, so no witness required.

RobinEllacotStrike · 16/07/2025 17:58

Harassedevictee · 16/07/2025 17:46

I feel drained after all that so you have my sympathy.

I keep reflecting on how IB couldn’t define anything I.e. sex or trans but knows Beth is trans. It’s just so mind blowing.

I am also appalled that someone on £50k+ basically passed it all over to HR and took no responsibility to advise or resolve a clear DEI issue. IB was very good at not remembering any conversation about SP.

IB doesnt know her own sex, but she knows for sure that TWAW

Lunde · 16/07/2025 17:59

I'm trying to work out what Isla Bumba actually does?

  • it's not HR - because that is where she directs everyone
  • it's not legal advice - because she is very hazy on the law
  • it's not policy - because Fife don't have one (apart from the one she copied and pasted)
  • it's not protected characteristics - because she doesn't do anything about equality based on sex, religion, age, disability - doesn't even know the numbers of staff covered by these
  • it's not record keeping - because she never keeps any notes of her "advice"

So what advice does she give and to whom?

Or does the NHS really pay her over £40K a year to hand out rainbow lanyards and order Pride cupcakes?

nauticant · 16/07/2025 17:59

DiamondThrone · 16/07/2025 17:57

I've Googled him, but am finding it hard to figure out - where would I best find Michael Foran's daily summary? Thanks.

Twitter: https://x.com/michaelpforan

Or this mirror site: https://nitter.net/michaelpforan

OP posts:
Tangfastic71 · 16/07/2025 18:00

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

WhatterySquash · 16/07/2025 18:00

It's baffling when they come out with this "no one knows what their chromosomes are so no one knows if they're a man or woman" line. So what are they saying, chromosomes show whether you're a man or woman? Can't they see that undermines the very bollocks they're trying to defend? If they believe in trans ideology and that males like BU are women and belong in women's single-sex spaces, they should just say "I'm a woman if I say I am just like BU". Any other reply makes no sense.

SqueakyDinosaur · 16/07/2025 18:01

DiamondThrone · 16/07/2025 17:57

I've Googled him, but am finding it hard to figure out - where would I best find Michael Foran's daily summary? Thanks.

I think it'll be on his Substack, which is called KnowingIus.

https://knowingius.org/

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2025 18:01

“While no formal sanctions have been imposed,” NHS Fife said in a statement, “the panel concluded that a facilitated reflective practice discussion would be appropriate.” It is not easy translating this guff into plain English but I think this means “We deeply regret your innocence but think you should think long and hard about the behaviour which caused us to persecute you”.

DeanElderberry · 16/07/2025 18:02

AAT65 · 16/07/2025 17:49

https://workforce.nhs.scot/media/cmldipto/flowchart-nhsscotland-workforce-conduct-policy-flowchart-last-updated-march-2020.pdf
Had a browse through the NHS Conduct Policy and can't see anything which suggests Sandie has to agree to a "facilitated reflective practice discussion". The above is only a snapshot flowchart but if the result is no case to answer that is the end. (May of course be missing something).

I hope if they push this line that Sandy will say that yes, she'll do it, but that her legal advice is that she must have her lawyer with her as an independent witness in any future meetings with any Fife management.

That will soften their cough.

In a sane world her Union would represent her, but this world is very non-sane.

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2025 18:02

The stupidity displayed by NHS Fife throughout this saga would put halfwits to shame. On Wednesday Isla Bumba, the health board’s head of “Equalities and Human Rights”, told the tribunal that she could not be sure of her own sex. “No one knows what their chromosomes are,” she said, a development which may surprise any woman who has, say, given birth.

Until recently, however, this was a statement that was simultaneously obtuse and orthodox. Multiple Scottish politicians have said similar things. Meanwhile, Upton says “I’m biologically female”, though we should also acknowledge that “the term biologically female or biologically male is completely nebulous”. I remind you that this person is a qualified physician.

Greyskybluesky · 16/07/2025 18:02

Lunde · 16/07/2025 17:59

I'm trying to work out what Isla Bumba actually does?

  • it's not HR - because that is where she directs everyone
  • it's not legal advice - because she is very hazy on the law
  • it's not policy - because Fife don't have one (apart from the one she copied and pasted)
  • it's not protected characteristics - because she doesn't do anything about equality based on sex, religion, age, disability - doesn't even know the numbers of staff covered by these
  • it's not record keeping - because she never keeps any notes of her "advice"

So what advice does she give and to whom?

Or does the NHS really pay her over £40K a year to hand out rainbow lanyards and order Pride cupcakes?

Edited

She has to organise translation and interpreting too. That's not difficult, I've done it in a previous job (although not NHS). Basically you determine requirements and then ring a pre-agreed company who takes care of it for you.

You don't actually do the translation and interpreting yourself!

Annoyedone · 16/07/2025 18:02

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Take a chill pill dude. You’re getting a bit testerstrical

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 16/07/2025 18:03

I’ve never had my chromosomes tested but thanks to menstruation, secondary sex characteristics, endometriosis, child birth x2 including an CS, ovarian cyst removal and now menopause I think I can probably hazard a guess as to my sex.

SionnachRuadh · 16/07/2025 18:04

@Tangfastic71 the gents is over there mate

NebulousDogWhistleIsReality · 16/07/2025 18:05

RobinEllacotStrike · 16/07/2025 17:58

IB doesnt know her own sex, but she knows for sure that TWAW

But will still correctly sex them by accident. Repeatedly 😂
It's almost as if she can tell who's a man and who's a woman!

murasaki · 16/07/2025 18:05

It's alright, he's hidden the thread. Allegedly.

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