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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #28

1000 replies

nauticant · 16/07/2025 12:09

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25
Thread 26: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5335861-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-26
Thread 27: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5372582-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-27

OP posts:
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27
RobinEllacotStrike · 16/07/2025 17:35

myplace · 16/07/2025 17:32

Earlier on the thread, someone posted a twitter link to a summary of the morning. I’m trying to find it and follow on Twitter. Something like, BoswellPapers.

Can anyone help? Thank you!

here you go - Boswell tends to do AM & PM summaries each day

https://x.com/boswelltoday/status/1945455514004881414

https://x.com/boswelltoday/status/1945455514004881414

NebulousDogWhistleIsReality · 16/07/2025 17:36

myplace · 16/07/2025 17:32

Earlier on the thread, someone posted a twitter link to a summary of the morning. I’m trying to find it and follow on Twitter. Something like, BoswellPapers.

Can anyone help? Thank you!

This one?

boswelltoday on X: "DAY 1. Morning Session: Peggie v NHS Fife & Dr Upton 🚨EQUALITY ADVICE ON AUTOPILOT. NHS FIFE'S POLICY VACUUM OUTLINED BY ISLA BUMBA The first morning of resumed testimony in Peggie v NHS Fife & Dr B Upton opened not with legal precision but with delay and disarray. Observers" / X

https://x.com/boswelltoday/status/1945453376491110451

FingleGlen · 16/07/2025 17:37

JamMakingWannaBe · 16/07/2025 17:30

I noticed that too!

Yep.

Someone who had such busy days that she couldn't find a window to speak to clinical staff who got in touch with her (what in earth could she possibly be filing her time given how many things today have been struck out as not her responsibility?)

She probably couldn't even find her way to the room in question, such is the level of her divorce from the nuts and bolts of the experience of a nurse like SP.

Waitwhat23 · 16/07/2025 17:37

BettyBooper · 16/07/2025 17:35

Another great summary of the afternoon

Bumbling Through Rights: NHS Fife’s Equality Lead Under Fire

By the end of the afternoon, the tribunal had heard it plainly: in NHS Fife, any man can access women’s changing rooms simply by declaring, “I’m a woman.” No policy. No vetting. No safeguard. And crucially - no regard for the women required to accept it.

Isla Bumba, NHS Fife’s Equality and Human Rights lead, spent hours defending advice that functioned as a blank cheque: if someone says they’re trans, they’re to be believed. That was the entire threshold. She admitted she knew nothing about Dr Beth Upton - his sex, his transition status, his appearance - before authorising his use of female-only facilities. “If someone says they are trans, I believe them,” she told the tribunal. Asked how she would detect a lie, she replied, “Anyone can lie,” but offered no procedure to identify or prevent it.

What about women’s rights? Bumba conceded she gave no thought to female staff’s privacy under Article 8 of the Human Rights Act. Had she considered the potential impact on women who’d survived sexual assault? No. Did she know how many of her colleagues had such histories? “We don’t collect that data.”

Instead, she invoked “inclusion” and referenced the EHRC code of practice. But when asked what would happen if a woman was surprised by a male body in the changing room, her solution was bureaucratic: “Raise it with management.” Under her advice, any man declaring himself a woman could enter women’s spaces. And any woman objecting was left to explain herself up the chain of command.

The contradictions mounted. Bumba said her advice was “generic,” yet was quoted directly in NHS documents as approving access for “Beth.” She claimed neutrality, even as her email signature marked her as an “LGBT ally.” When asked whether a “GC ally” badge would be equally acceptable, she dodged. Being an ally to trans people, she insisted, “doesn’t mean I’m not to women” - though she could name no action taken to defend women’s rights.

She acknowledged men are generally stronger and more likely to commit sexual violence. “Only men are capable of rape,” NC reminded her. “Not true,” Bumba replied. “Except Isla Bryson,” she added, referencing the convicted double rapist who identified as a woman. The contradiction went unanswered.

Bumba’s justification rested on perception - how someone “presents.” But when asked whether someone like Dr Upton, who “looks male,” might be seen as male by a woman in the changing room, she deflected: “That’s your opinion.” Could a woman be frightened by this? “Depends on the individual.” Does NHS Fife distinguish between trans-identifying males and opportunistic men? “It’s more complex,” she said - then failed to show how.

The session revealed not a rogue official, but a system. A workplace where gender identity is unquestionable, where objections are pathologised, and where female staff are rendered voiceless by policy that doesn’t exist on paper but governs practice all the same. NHS Fife didn’t balance competing rights. It erased one set to prioritise the other.

This wasn’t inclusion. It was institutional indifference, disguised as equality.

https://x.com/boswelltoday/status/1945510229858504706

My goodness, that's brilliant. Sharp and to the point.

myplace · 16/07/2025 17:39

Thank you @RobinEllacotStrike and @NebulousDogWhistleIsReality !

I can relax now knowing I will find out what’s gone on!

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2025 17:40

SqueakyDinosaur · 16/07/2025 17:16

Michael Foran appears to have about 40 hours in every day - he has also just published an analysis of the Good Law Project's request for judicial review of the EHRC Interim Update following For Women Scotland, which contains a particularly glorious sentence:

'The GLP argue that "this forms the historical context in which the Workplace Regulations 1992 were enacted". The first point to make here is that this is not how time works. The 1992 regulations were enacted in 1992. P v S was decided in 1996. A was decided in 2004. 1992 came before both 1996 and 2004. It is not possible for these cases to form the historical context in which the 1992 Regulations were enacted.'

I do love a bit of academic snark.

Its a Timeywhimey Thing.

NebulousDogWhistleIsReality · 16/07/2025 17:40

Waitwhat23 · 16/07/2025 17:35

Makes me think of this

I'm really missing the laugh reaction today!

nauticant · 16/07/2025 17:41

<Looks sadly at the thread reaching page 30>

OP posts:
CantHoldMeDown · 16/07/2025 17:42

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the poster's request.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 16/07/2025 17:43

That Express article is damning!

Harassedevictee · 16/07/2025 17:46

nauticant · 16/07/2025 17:41

<Looks sadly at the thread reaching page 30>

I feel drained after all that so you have my sympathy.

I keep reflecting on how IB couldn’t define anything I.e. sex or trans but knows Beth is trans. It’s just so mind blowing.

I am also appalled that someone on £50k+ basically passed it all over to HR and took no responsibility to advise or resolve a clear DEI issue. IB was very good at not remembering any conversation about SP.

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2025 17:46

The NHS (The organisation that Ima Bumbler works for) has announced the following in the last month:

https://news.sky.com/story/every-baby-in-the-uk-to-receive-dna-testing-13386645
Every baby in the UK to receive DNA testing

Every baby in the UK will have their DNA tested under a new 10-year plan for the NHS.

The whole-genome sequencing will screen for hundreds of diseases and allow people to "leapfrog" killer illnesses, according to the Health Secretary, Wes Streeting.

Speaking to the Telegraph, he revealed plans to move the NHS towards a model of sickness prevention rather than treatment.
Personalised medicine, made possible through things like DNA testing, will form a big part of that plan, with £650m pledged to genomics research by the government.

"The revolution in medical science means that we can transform the NHS over the coming decade, from a service which diagnoses and treats ill health to one that predicts and prevents it," said Mr Streeting in a statement.

"Genomics presents us with the opportunity to leapfrog disease, so we're in front of it rather than reacting to it."

So soon every new child born in the UK WILL know their chromosones, so there will be no more bitching and whining over knowing which sex you are, because the NHS are going to make sure we all know!

How handy is that?!

Every baby in the UK to receive DNA testing

Personalised medicine, made possible through things like DNA testing, will form a big part the health secretary's new plan for the NHS.

https://news.sky.com/story/every-baby-in-the-uk-to-receive-dna-testing-13386645

Justabaker · 16/07/2025 17:47

Notfinanciallyresponsibleforyou · 16/07/2025 15:56

Nice reminder to what her job is and how she is clearly shit at it. imagine not knowing stonewall stuff, Article 8, or not taking effing notes in meetings! The Scottish taxpayer needs to be asking for a refund

The general rule in my professional life - most junior person responsible for draft of minutes for chair/most senior person to review and sign off.

Merrymouse · 16/07/2025 17:47

Harassedevictee · 16/07/2025 17:46

I feel drained after all that so you have my sympathy.

I keep reflecting on how IB couldn’t define anything I.e. sex or trans but knows Beth is trans. It’s just so mind blowing.

I am also appalled that someone on £50k+ basically passed it all over to HR and took no responsibility to advise or resolve a clear DEI issue. IB was very good at not remembering any conversation about SP.

If nothing else, she seems to have demonstrated that her job is redundant.

PrettyDamnCosmic · 16/07/2025 17:48

MrsOvertonsWindow · 16/07/2025 17:43

That Express article is damning!

Indeed!

Ms Bumba concluded by saying that does not think that women's safety, privacy and dignity were sacrificed in this case and that no women complained. She was asked by judge Sandy Kemp whether she had seen this changing room in question, and she has not, to which he replied: "'So you don't know what we are talking about."

AAT65 · 16/07/2025 17:49

https://workforce.nhs.scot/media/cmldipto/flowchart-nhsscotland-workforce-conduct-policy-flowchart-last-updated-march-2020.pdf
Had a browse through the NHS Conduct Policy and can't see anything which suggests Sandie has to agree to a "facilitated reflective practice discussion". The above is only a snapshot flowchart but if the result is no case to answer that is the end. (May of course be missing something).

https://workforce.nhs.scot/media/cmldipto/flowchart-nhsscotland-workforce-conduct-policy-flowchart-last-updated-march-2020.pdf

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2025 17:50

RobinEllacotStrike · 16/07/2025 17:09

How is EDI not part of the HR or Legal departments?

What we are seeing is a real time demonstration of why all DEI Departments should be abolished and individual roles be redistributed within HR and Legal to avoid all this issues with lack of relevant skills sets.

FingleGlen · 16/07/2025 17:51

I'd love to hear Tanya De Grunwald do a special podcast episode of This Isn't Working on this case in detail.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 16/07/2025 17:51

Yes.
Today was a damning demonstration of how dangerous they are with a baked in contempt for the rights of others and an inbuilt prejudice in favour of males demanding access to undressing women and girls.

rebmacesrevda · 16/07/2025 17:52

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2025 17:50

What we are seeing is a real time demonstration of why all DEI Departments should be abolished and individual roles be redistributed within HR and Legal to avoid all this issues with lack of relevant skills sets.

Absolutely. I bet the HR admin person (band 4 or 5) knows the Equality Act better than IB does.

SionnachRuadh · 16/07/2025 17:52

Justabaker · 16/07/2025 17:47

The general rule in my professional life - most junior person responsible for draft of minutes for chair/most senior person to review and sign off.

That was me in a previous life, setting up the boardroom, making sure the big screen worked, having the tea and biscuits on the table, and then taking the minutes. Which were reviewed and signed off by the Permanent Secretary.

But I was very junior at the time, and I definitely wasn't a DEI Vibes Lead.

CriticalCondition · 16/07/2025 17:52

"'So you don't know what we you are talking about."

This works too.

KnottyAuty · 16/07/2025 17:52

This reply has been withdrawn

This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

nauticant · 16/07/2025 17:53

She is ideologically unwavering. That's her problem.

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