Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #28

1000 replies

nauticant · 16/07/2025 12:09

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25
Thread 26: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5335861-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-26
Thread 27: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5372582-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-27

OP posts:
Thread gallery
27
TerrierCollector · 16/07/2025 17:15

MagicSexEssence · 16/07/2025 17:12

I'm also looking at the Reddit thread on this. What bothers me is how they phrase their complaints as if they're unanswerable questions. Like, do you want an answer or not? Come and ask the questions here and people will happily answer them. No point screaming them into your echo chamber.

I noticed someone commented that their issue wasn't that TIMs are predators but that TIMs are men and (among other things) retain male pattern criminality. This obviously brought on a slew of "that's bullshit, show us the data" type comments but of course the data will never appear as the person who left the comment will have been banned.

That was me. I was permanently banned from the sub for my troubles! The data was briefly up though!

Merrymouse · 16/07/2025 17:16

RobinEllacotStrike · 16/07/2025 17:09

How is EDI not part of the HR or Legal departments?

Not part of HR because a lot of it would involve patients, and I suppose a lawyer wouldn't be expected to have any particular expertise on facilitating engagement with people who are hard of hearing.

However, it would seem to make more sense if responsibilities were split across clinical/legal/HR departments. Instead they seem to have given the job to somebody with no relevant expertise or experience.

nauticant · 16/07/2025 17:16

Thinking back I'm still bemused at the idea that one way to undermine the Supreme Court judgment is that no one knows anyone's sex, including their own, in the absence of a chromosomal test.

OP posts:
SqueakyDinosaur · 16/07/2025 17:16

Michael Foran appears to have about 40 hours in every day - he has also just published an analysis of the Good Law Project's request for judicial review of the EHRC Interim Update following For Women Scotland, which contains a particularly glorious sentence:

'The GLP argue that "this forms the historical context in which the Workplace Regulations 1992 were enacted". The first point to make here is that this is not how time works. The 1992 regulations were enacted in 1992. P v S was decided in 1996. A was decided in 2004. 1992 came before both 1996 and 2004. It is not possible for these cases to form the historical context in which the 1992 Regulations were enacted.'

I do love a bit of academic snark.

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #28
MagicSexEssence · 16/07/2025 17:16

The most illuminating aspect of today has been how wasteful the NHS can be. What exactly did IB spend her days doing? What was the point of her role? This is exactly the kind of wasteful spending that the NHS needs to cut. Pay some external expert to write a coherent and law abiding DEI policy for the entire NHS then designate one HR person per hospital (or trust, however they do it) to deal with any DEI issues as and when they arise.

WearyAuldWumman · 16/07/2025 17:17

teawamutu · 16/07/2025 17:13

Idle wondering: who is NC saving up the 'no other women objected, just SP' 'of course they fucking didn't, look what happened to her, would you?' line of questioning for?

Yup.

I had an op in Fife before the Upton nonsense kicked off.

One of the nurses asked me what the heck was going on in Fife schools - we'd been chatting, which is how she knew my profession. She was concerned because of the gender nonsense going on in her daughter's high school.

However, she made sure that no other members of staff were around when she asked me.

NebulousDogWhistleIsReality · 16/07/2025 17:18

That Reddit thread is tumbleweed compared to the discussion here, 132 upvotes and only 82 comments.

TheKeatingFive · 16/07/2025 17:18

MagicSexEssence · 16/07/2025 17:16

The most illuminating aspect of today has been how wasteful the NHS can be. What exactly did IB spend her days doing? What was the point of her role? This is exactly the kind of wasteful spending that the NHS needs to cut. Pay some external expert to write a coherent and law abiding DEI policy for the entire NHS then designate one HR person per hospital (or trust, however they do it) to deal with any DEI issues as and when they arise.

I feel the implications of this may prove to be wider reaching than the nhs realise.

MagicSexEssence · 16/07/2025 17:18

TerrierCollector · 16/07/2025 17:15

That was me. I was permanently banned from the sub for my troubles! The data was briefly up though!

Edited

Of course you were banned! I was banned simply for suggesting that Aida spends too much time winning hearts and minds on Mumsnet 🤭

LarkLaneAgain · 16/07/2025 17:18

teawamutu · 16/07/2025 17:13

Idle wondering: who is NC saving up the 'no other women objected, just SP' 'of course they fucking didn't, look what happened to her, would you?' line of questioning for?

Submissions perhaps at the end?
To address all the claims of no one else complained.
As in, of course they didn't, look at what happened to the nurse who did.

Punishments, fabrications and even when cleared under the disciplinary process, which took 18 months, they suggested a facilitated reflective practice discussion.

rebmacesrevda · 16/07/2025 17:19

nauticant · 16/07/2025 17:16

Thinking back I'm still bemused at the idea that one way to undermine the Supreme Court judgment is that no one knows anyone's sex, including their own, in the absence of a chromosomal test.

I'd like to call my expert witness, my 4-year-old nephew, and ask him to point out his Mum and Dad, respectively.

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2025 17:19

MagicSexEssence · 16/07/2025 17:16

The most illuminating aspect of today has been how wasteful the NHS can be. What exactly did IB spend her days doing? What was the point of her role? This is exactly the kind of wasteful spending that the NHS needs to cut. Pay some external expert to write a coherent and law abiding DEI policy for the entire NHS then designate one HR person per hospital (or trust, however they do it) to deal with any DEI issues as and when they arise.

You mean like Stonewall?
.
Can we please avoid dodgy third parties and just follow EHRC guidance please.

TerrierCollector · 16/07/2025 17:20

MagicSexEssence · 16/07/2025 17:18

Of course you were banned! I was banned simply for suggesting that Aida spends too much time winning hearts and minds on Mumsnet 🤭

I also received a warning for hate speech on another for saying that, despite their protestations, banning men from women’s sports is actually good for girls!

MagicSexEssence · 16/07/2025 17:21

NebulousDogWhistleIsReality · 16/07/2025 17:18

That Reddit thread is tumbleweed compared to the discussion here, 132 upvotes and only 82 comments.

They really don't want to acknowledge it.

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2025 17:22

nauticant · 16/07/2025 17:16

Thinking back I'm still bemused at the idea that one way to undermine the Supreme Court judgment is that no one knows anyone's sex, including their own, in the absence of a chromosomal test.

And they work for the NHS who (checks notes) deal with medical issues relating to chromosomal abnormalities, reproduction and are developing new treatments for various conditions using genetic fingerprinting.

It's almost as if they don't understand some pretty vital aspects of healthcare in 2025.

Rhaidimiddim · 16/07/2025 17:27

LarkLaneAgain · 16/07/2025 17:18

Submissions perhaps at the end?
To address all the claims of no one else complained.
As in, of course they didn't, look at what happened to the nurse who did.

Punishments, fabrications and even when cleared under the disciplinary process, which took 18 months, they suggested a facilitated reflective practice discussion.

Another way of looking at it is that, the first person who dared to complain got suspended.

LarkLaneAgain · 16/07/2025 17:28

@Rhaidimiddim Yes, great point. Much stronger.

Carriemac · 16/07/2025 17:28

BezMills · 16/07/2025 16:18

Eh yeah there was mebbe a teensy bit of dereliction of duties, but to be fair I was at my desk by 5am and put in a decent shift overall!

Bands accross the NHS are fixed from 2-9 most staff band 3-5 - it’s very hard for most eg nurses to progress to 7 even with a lot of responsibilities

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #28
JamMakingWannaBe · 16/07/2025 17:30

CriticalCondition · 16/07/2025 16:20

J Have you seen the cr in this case.
IB No. Not been there.

IB has never been in the changing room. Not once has she thought to check out this room before, during or after this whole clusterfuck.

I noticed that too!

MagicSexEssence · 16/07/2025 17:31

Point taken. I think the NHS have shown themselves to be woefully incompetent though. I know DEI consultants are a thing - surely some of them must be aware of the law and how it should be applied. Trans issues should really be quite a small part of the policy.

anyolddinosaur · 16/07/2025 17:32

Ai says 4.7 million people in the UK have taken DNA tests for genealogy. So it looks like a fair few people know their chromosomes.

The Linzi Smith case is interesting as the public sector duty of impartiality goes well beyond the police. I'm not sure if NHS staff are currently expected to sign something similar when they join......

myplace · 16/07/2025 17:32

Earlier on the thread, someone posted a twitter link to a summary of the morning. I’m trying to find it and follow on Twitter. Something like, BoswellPapers.

Can anyone help? Thank you!

Scottishtizzler · 16/07/2025 17:34

In other Boards, their DEI Lead can be as high as an 8b putting them in the £75k - 80K salary level. And we've heard today about the equality leads meetings and the types of discussions that are happening there. On more than one occasion, I've had to say to my own DEI Lead, "Women are people too you know" because it gets lost in the maelstrom of whatever the campaign of the week is.

BettyBooper · 16/07/2025 17:35

Another great summary of the afternoon

Bumbling Through Rights: NHS Fife’s Equality Lead Under Fire

By the end of the afternoon, the tribunal had heard it plainly: in NHS Fife, any man can access women’s changing rooms simply by declaring, “I’m a woman.” No policy. No vetting. No safeguard. And crucially - no regard for the women required to accept it.

Isla Bumba, NHS Fife’s Equality and Human Rights lead, spent hours defending advice that functioned as a blank cheque: if someone says they’re trans, they’re to be believed. That was the entire threshold. She admitted she knew nothing about Dr Beth Upton - his sex, his transition status, his appearance - before authorising his use of female-only facilities. “If someone says they are trans, I believe them,” she told the tribunal. Asked how she would detect a lie, she replied, “Anyone can lie,” but offered no procedure to identify or prevent it.

What about women’s rights? Bumba conceded she gave no thought to female staff’s privacy under Article 8 of the Human Rights Act. Had she considered the potential impact on women who’d survived sexual assault? No. Did she know how many of her colleagues had such histories? “We don’t collect that data.”

Instead, she invoked “inclusion” and referenced the EHRC code of practice. But when asked what would happen if a woman was surprised by a male body in the changing room, her solution was bureaucratic: “Raise it with management.” Under her advice, any man declaring himself a woman could enter women’s spaces. And any woman objecting was left to explain herself up the chain of command.

The contradictions mounted. Bumba said her advice was “generic,” yet was quoted directly in NHS documents as approving access for “Beth.” She claimed neutrality, even as her email signature marked her as an “LGBT ally.” When asked whether a “GC ally” badge would be equally acceptable, she dodged. Being an ally to trans people, she insisted, “doesn’t mean I’m not to women” - though she could name no action taken to defend women’s rights.

She acknowledged men are generally stronger and more likely to commit sexual violence. “Only men are capable of rape,” NC reminded her. “Not true,” Bumba replied. “Except Isla Bryson,” she added, referencing the convicted double rapist who identified as a woman. The contradiction went unanswered.

Bumba’s justification rested on perception - how someone “presents.” But when asked whether someone like Dr Upton, who “looks male,” might be seen as male by a woman in the changing room, she deflected: “That’s your opinion.” Could a woman be frightened by this? “Depends on the individual.” Does NHS Fife distinguish between trans-identifying males and opportunistic men? “It’s more complex,” she said - then failed to show how.

The session revealed not a rogue official, but a system. A workplace where gender identity is unquestionable, where objections are pathologised, and where female staff are rendered voiceless by policy that doesn’t exist on paper but governs practice all the same. NHS Fife didn’t balance competing rights. It erased one set to prioritise the other.

This wasn’t inclusion. It was institutional indifference, disguised as equality.

https://x.com/boswelltoday/status/1945510229858504706

https://x.com/boswelltoday/status/1945510229858504706

Waitwhat23 · 16/07/2025 17:35

MagicSexEssence · 16/07/2025 17:21

They really don't want to acknowledge it.

Not Listening Friends Tv GIF

Makes me think of this

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.
Swipe left for the next trending thread