NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #28

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25
Thread 26: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5335861-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-26
Thread 27: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5372582-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-27

I think what they're saying is "until this" and "only Sandie"

They think they're making a reasonable point about how out of step SP is/was with everyone else, who they have assumed are all over the moon about it. As opposed to having some insight and reflection and realising that someone who wears a rainbow lanyard, signs her emails "I'm an LGBTQ+ ally" and gave permission for a man to walk in on you in the first place, isn't going to be the first person women approach when they have this issue.

And that maybe, just maybe, you've made it almost impossible for women to speak up until some poor shero like SP is pushed into reacting through trauma and fear and gets reported and investigated and much to your surprise, fights back.

And the farce continues as John swinney has confidence in NHS Fife 😫
https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/politics/astonishing-john-swinney-confidence-nhs-35566489?utm_source=linkCopy&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar

And the express on this afternoons testimony
https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/politics/nhs-fife-equalities-chief-says-35567796?utm_source=linkCopy&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar

Compare the qualifications, experience and level of responsibility of a band 7 DEI lead like IB with a band 7 nurse.

A band 7 nurse is a ward manager, managing 30+ other nurses and HCAs, running a ward with 30+ sick patients, responsible for the care of all of those people. Or a Nurse Practitioner, running clinics solo seeing 40 + outpatients a day, responsible for managing symptoms and recognising drug reactions or emerging problems in patients with complex health conditions. Or a palliative care CNS, prescribing controlled drugs and managing a good death for patients and their family members.

Then there's the likes of IB - no relevant experience or qualifications, hasn't read the law, doesn't understand the law, cribs others' policies and assumes they're right, takes no responsibility for her baseless advice. Think we've found a way the NHS can save some money😡

Not clear how they are going to argue that it was only a co-incidence that the one person who complained also faced disciplinary procedures.

@FingleGlen exactly. How the DEI Lead, of all people, doesn’t understand this, is utterly jaw-dropping.

Recently I had mandatory DEI training from my US head office. At the end was a quiz you had to get 100% to “pass” and prove you were “in compliance”. The only way to pass was to answer a multi choice question that, as a GC female, when I answered accurately and truthfully was Wrong. Eventually I had to answer the way they wanted in order to Pass.
I considered complaining to US HR but honestly did not want the black mark on my record. We are silenced in many subtle ways. I know this from my previous HR training on Unconscious Bias 😂

Does Scotland really not have any better candidates for the job than Isla Bumba?

NHS Fife wasn't looking for a good candidate though.

They were looking for a young, captured handmaiden. They got one.

The answer to this question is on the NHS audit threads, which have eleventy billion examples of NHS staff transgender guidance telling women that men have the legal right to use women's spaces if they say magic words, and if women speak up they will be put on a disciplinary and reported to the police for a hate crime.

I do wonder if the other people in the DEI Leads group that Isla is a part of are now having a bit of a worry.

Because if she's being shown up this badly and they've been following the same mishmash nonsense, not producing policies etc, then they're going to be looked at too, presumably.

Yes. Naomi was brilliant in highlighting that the trans ally email signature made it look like IB prioritised that over all the other PCs.
So clever.

I've long thought AFC needs an overhaul.

Having desk jockies like IB on a comparable pay scale to band 7 nurses and being paid more than paramedics is just ludicrous

If they're true believers they won't think she's been shown up. She chanted the mantras like a good little handmaiden and NC is just a nasty bigot for questioning the one true faith.

The thread is moving so fast - but this did give me a smile.
Your link is to a circus fire.
Which seems very appropriate 😀

@MarieDeGournay Michael Forean went into the arguments around the h&s work regulations 1992 in his analysis of the sc judgment (its on his substac) and basically it would have to apply the same thought process as the sc did and go by biological sex

That BBC link was to the same circus fine?? Conspiracy??

My experience of the health service is that people on the admin and clerical side of AfC are either very efficient and have a huge workload, or incompetent and do nothing useful - there's very little in-between. And the useless ones are far more likely to get promoted, because they have the time to make sure they get in front of the right people and know the right buzz words, whereas the competent ones are too busy trying to cope with their enormous workload to have time for brown nosing!

Might have been worth it if they can give guidance and policy that avoids this kind of expensive and embarrassing shitshow!

fire, not fine. Doh

New Twitter members springing up all over the place (I swear it's not me).

MEH: It didn't post. Take two.

This is where I'd like a 'fingers crossed' emoji. Transcripts are hugely expensive. Let's hope someone waves a magic wand.

New Twitter members springing up all over the place (I swear it's not me).

How is EDI not part of the HR or Legal departments?

Surely that's to be answered on the basis of how EDI identifies.

And the fire was caused by a faulty washing machine.
It could no longer launder the truth.
Defo a conspiracy.😎

I'm also looking at the Reddit thread on this. What bothers me is how they phrase their complaints as if they're unanswerable questions. Like, do you want an answer or not? Come and ask the questions here and people will happily answer them. No point screaming them into your echo chamber.

I noticed someone commented that their issue wasn't that TIMs are predators but that TIMs are men and (among other things) retain male pattern criminality. This obviously brought on a slew of "that's bullshit, show us the data" type comments but of course the data will never appear as the person who left the comment will have been banned.

Idle wondering: who is NC saving up the 'no other women objected, just SP' 'of course they fucking didn't, look what happened to her, would you?' line of questioning for?