NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #28

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25
Thread 26: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5335861-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-26
Thread 27: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5372582-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-27

Well, IB chanted all the doctrines correctly like a good acolyte so she'll be in for some praise, presumably.

I'm sure of it.

She had been active in the African Caribbean society at uni. Race and gender reassignment are the two protected characteristics which orgs are particularly interested in - sex, disability, not so much. I guess she ticked their boxes.

No I'm sure they'd be full of end-of-the-world misery about how much everyone hates them and wants them to stop existing and how beastly those awful GC women are and sending hugs to poor martyred Beth and we must take care of each other and stay safe and that kind of thing🙄
More dangerously, there'll be more militant reactions too.

Through the looking glass world does not pay attention to details.

It just rehashes selected two or three lines from influencers who find a selected quote and twist it to their narrative.

Or frames the entire known universe as transphobic and abject persecution for all transwomen, so details is most definitely irrelevant.

She previously worked for NHS Grampian as a COVID tracer for two years before joining NHS Fife as it's Equality and Human Rights lead on an NHS Band 7 salary. This is the band that applies to senior chare nurses with many years of clinical experience under their belts. And the NHS complain that they find it difficult to attract and retain staff. No prizes for guessing why!

They could play it for persecution points.

J Have you seen the cr in this case.
IB No. Not been there.

IB has never been in the changing room. Not once has she thought to check out this room before, during or after this whole clusterfuck.

TA Top Trumps

IQ: lowest score wins
Number of sex and gender-related legal proceedings you are aware of: lowest score wins
Number of support animals needed: highest score wins
Number of hair colours: highest score wins
BMI: highest score wins
Number of trans-identified relatives: highest score wins
Qualifications for current job: lowest score wins

Or special robes & a chain of office?

Self identified or appointed?

JR seems to be going to argue that the FWS case only had a narrow application to public boards, and doesn't apply to the H&S 1992 regs.

Not sure how that is going to be argued, but will she need a witness to do that?

My husband does. I cringe when he sends me an email from his work account.

Oh please someone create some AI top trumps cards featuring prominent TRAs.

"We just have a little further to go, that's what I'm telling myself. Theirs is a completely irrational emotional response. They don't know us, we're "other". Same as when gay people were winning acceptance, it took years and years but the more people knew them, the more trust there was. There's more of us than there's ever been. We have allies. And there's more of us everyday. Turn up. Be your fantastic self. Let's learn a little self pride, look to civil rights activists of the past, whatever it takes. We are going to fabulous ourselves into peoples minds. That's what I'm telling myself anyway 🤞"
https://www.reddit.com/r/transgenderUK/comments/1m17co0/trans_changing_room_row_nurse_cleared_of/

To be fair, winning hearts and minds does seem a better approach than throwing pee over yourself, writhing round women's ankles like snakes, or punching them in the face. But the confusion at silly women's "irrational emotional response" is so clueless and entitled. So maybe some way to go then.

No, I reckon they'll be having full-on wheel-eyed spittle-flecked breakdowns about how she misgendered poor Beth, and admitted TQ wasn't her top priority i.e. TRAITOR.

If there is then the poor sods are deluded.

Michael Foran on x is at the hearing, and posted these comments ...

Jane Russell is taking Isla Bumba to NHS policies on trans inclusion - can't see what the full details are but they are all broadly trans-inclusive. Unsure what the point is here beyond "everyone else was doing it", which isn't a legal defence.

Isla Bumba doesn’t know if she’s female. She would hazard a guess that she’s female.

Naomi Cunningham has asked Isla Bumba whether she considered the Workplace (Health, Safety, and Welfare) Regulations 1992 when she gave advice on the female only changing rooms. She didn’t.

To be fair, that's kind of their defining feature

Yeah, I reckon she'll be cast out for treason now.

Theodore.

Yes and they must be utterly baffled to hear their daughter say that she 'might be female'. Perhaps they could text her to clear up her confusion about this...

Can they not hear themselves. It drives me up the wall.

I am reminded once again of ManiacMagpie's post when she was doing her one woman protest in Cambridge regarding a similar gotcha.

Her response was something along the lines of 'Are you honestly saying that if one of your parents transitioned it would be impossible for me to be able to tell which one gave birth to you if I met them?'

If so, it's going to be really interesting, because common sense says that if the SC has clarified that 'sex' means 'biological sex' in the EA, it follows logically that the same meaning applies to all other legislation and regulations, especially those made at a time when the only understanding of 'sex' was 'biological sex'.

But I know, 'follows logically' and 'the law' don't always go together.
Sometimes the law is an ass, and its pronouns are 'he/haw'

I'd like to see it argued out.

And this is the problem with HR outsourcing the issue to EDI and not Legal...

EDI doesn't cover H&S at work.

"Ms Bumba said she got involved because she had been asked to provide advice, but didn't know that HR was already involved in the dispute."

How can you give advice if you don't try to find out what procedures have been followed so far?