NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #28

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25
Thread 26: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5335861-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-26
Thread 27: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5372582-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-27

Who is GM?

< goes off to check who that is>

From TT

J Not yet joined.
IB yes
J [to doc] Some of your answers seem to be referring to another section - did you also read paragraphs under gender reassignment and single sex services.
IB Can I read that
J Trying to understand if just read 13.57 or the rest
IB I would have read it all. Probably should have referenced [another part]
J Exceptions. Do you know what that is referring to.
IB y
J Did you look at EA 2010
IB Yes, would have done as part of scoping for original policy
J This code of practice [missed - sound]
J Have you seen the cr in this case.
IB No. Not been there. Now
JR JR Was court of appeals case in Croft part of your analysis
IB No
JR This is public sector equality duty. Please explain to tribunal which relevant to this
IB Could be argued every PC could be relevant
JR And for DU
IB Gender reassignment, birth
JR You were asked q c women and t ppl working at board - whether women's privacy dignity and safety were sacrificed
IB No don't think so. Some individuals might feel that way
JR How many individuals approached you with regard to their privacy dignity and safety
IB None
JR That concludes my questions.
[discussing witnesses, inc Gillian Malone]
[Session ends. Resumes normal time tomorrow, so assume 10 am

There we are

Head of nursing is the only thing I'm finding

From TT:

JR How many individuals approached you with regard to their privacy dignity and safety
IB None
JR That concludes my questions.
[discussing witnesses, inc Gillian Malone]
[Session ends. Resumes normal time tomorrow, so assume 10 am]

Look what happens to those who do.....

So IB's shtick appears to be, "I gave advice on policy wrt legal position of who is male and female without any knowledge of policy, legal position, or who is male and female."

Blinder.

TT's 2nd half of the afternoon tweets

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1945491285294333962.html

Gillian Malone witness all day tomorrow plus 1 possible other witness not named.

Thanks everyone for the re-posts (abandoned the day job for today, eh, BezMills😀?), discussion and comments.

Two things:
1 I think that it was agreed by the court before the whole thing began that Dr Upton could be referred to as 'he', for clarity. So not really misgendering in this case
2 Question about staff bands - are admin/clerical/management bands the same as clinical/nursing bands? I'd have thought there would be different scales for these roles.

JR You were asked q c women and t ppl working at board - whether women's privacy dignity and safety were sacrificed
IB No don't think so. Some individuals might feel that way.

'Some individuals'? I’m sure there used to be a word for those individuals. Someone help me out. Wumben? Wimpund? Woomud?

I didn't get to observe the first part of the tribunal as access was revoked by the time I got to it.
I'm grateful to be observing this one though.
Today has just been Wow. Nothing new obviously but it's crystal clear that IB is a TA.

Can anyone point me to a post or tell me who are the remaining witnesses in this case? I've lost track

Also do we know anything about that request to examine Upton's phone ? Did anything come of that?

No thank you

IB: I'm an ally, not necessarily top one

Now I want to know who is the Top Ally at NHS Fife and do they have a badge?

It's the desperate reaches of a TRA who hasn't had a good day, poor lamb, what with the 'Sandie Peggie didn't do anything wrong' announcement and the 'the Police can't favour one group over all the rest' announcement.

The flailing of arms and gnashing of teeth from Blue-sky and Reddit can be heard from space, I suspect.

Completely unrelated, I may have a wee glass of something fizzy tonight.

No, under Agenda for Change the banding runs across all NHS roles (except medical)

Under Agenda for change they're all on the same scale, and I think a lot of nurses are unhappy about how difficult it is for them to get the higher bands compared to non-nursing staff.

A quick Q - so if IB didn’t know anything about SP’s proactive queries about Dr U using fem cr, who had SP’s line manager (ED?) gone to with that query?

Exactly. It's a brave woman (or man) who would take this on as Sandie Peggie did, particularly in the days before the SC ruling turned the trans world on its head and reminded everyone of the actual legal law.

Do you think there's a pro gender forum somewhere where they are all covering this too, and saying "that went brilliantly?"

From Herald Scotland
4:09pm
Jane Russell KC, representing NHS Fife and Dr Beth Upton, asks Ms Bumba whether she thought the dignity and safety of women had been sacrificed by her guidance.
"I don't think so," she said.
"I think some individuals may feel that way."
The equality and human rights lead tells the tribunal that no women approached her to say they felt their safety had been disadvantaged.

Ooh, is there a Top Trumps game in development there, do we think?

Thanks FingleGlen and NImumconfused

IB Don't agree with your definition of bio sex. Much more complicated than that. Don't know anything c Beth's body. No one knows what their chromosomes are.

I hate these stupid people.

It's all about the Feelz and Being Kind to the males who you definitely can't tell but bend over backwards for at the expense of the females who you absolutely cannot identify apart from when you need to tell them to suck it up.

Eh yeah there was mebbe a teensy bit of dereliction of duties, but to be fair I was at my desk by 5am and put in a decent shift overall!