NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #28

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25
Thread 26: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5335861-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-26
Thread 27: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5372582-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-27

So one minute it's HR's responsibility, and the next it's hers? She doesn't get to decide policies, doesn't get to decide what data is collected etc.... But is a source for advice?

I do love a good Orwell quote.

Please don't tempt fate 🙏

Shades of a mercy killing there.

From TT

IB Don't know if anything there is true or false.
NC Can you agree this may be an explanation of the consensus across the Scottish boards
JR I don't understand q
J This witness hasn't written policies and you are asking her to give an opinion...
NC Will come back to it in sub
NC PCs are sex and gender reassignment. And sex means sex
IB As in male and female
NC yes
NC [bundle] NHS Scotland application form.
IB I believe so. Haven't seen one of these in a while.
NC Q 2. Which best describes your gender m /f /another way / prefer not to say
NC Is this NHS Fife form.
IB I'm not involved in this data collecting
NC Nothing collecting info re sex, just gender. Suggests Scottish board not interested in sex discrimination.
IB Don't think that. Just that they have chosen specific language.
NC [to bundle] Your email to KSearle on 3/1/24. You say you have through Datix. KS wasn't charged with i/x.
IB I have no involvement in i/x
NC So what business was it of yours if neither involved.
IB KS coming to me as Eq lead for advice. Would have been my opportunity to defend w rights as well - be balanced I said should engage with HR, appropriate for me to signpost them to HR
NC HR already involved though
IB Didn't know that
NC Why didn't you just say go to
HR This looks more elaborate. I suggest the plan between you and KS was to make sure SP was punished.
IB That's quite a jump. Not the case.
NC No further qs. (mic drop)
J Back to doc. When did you first see [email from Jamie Doyle]
IB When added to bundle. After February.
J Date is 29 August 2023. It says made contact with IB and Maggie already in touch,
J Chronology is confusing
IB I would suggest it's a typo
J Any recollection of timing of your discussion
IB No
J All you can say is question raised in summer 2023.
IB Yes
J I thought you said someone was about to join but hadn't yet.
IB Yes. About to join.
J Prospective.

And here it is, Isla is in the keep net, but is then she's put back on the hook to fish for the bigger game - KS

I'll have to call it a day at about 4.15 (school run etc)

Where's the line management within Fife on this?

There's a whole Mish mash of problems with this case involving the Legal Department, HR Department and the EDI Department.

Seriously you'd be looking at this and binning the EDI Department because it's causing conflict and taking over from the Legal and HR departments and leaving you massively exposed for a massive car crash of liability.

If she were a former SNP member, the likelihood is that she'd be GC.

Oh, he knows. He just wanted to get in with giving Upton a female pronoun and potentially showing off the oh so edgy username (takes me right back to 2005, it does). You'll notice that of everything being covered in this thread, that's all he's got...

From TT:

J Not yet joined.
IB yes
J [to doc] Some of your answers seem to be referring to another section - did you also read paragraphs under gender reassignment and single sex services.
IB Can I read that
J yes

Another MN are you paying attention to the wider ramifications of this case moment right here:

NC Q 2. Which best describes your gender m /f /another way / prefer not to say
NC Is this NHS Fife form.
IB I'm not involved in this data collecting
NC Nothing collecting info re sex, just gender. Suggests Scottish board not interested in sex discrimination.
IB Don't think that. Just that they have chosen specific language.

From herald Scotland
4:00pm
Ms Bumba said she got involved because she had been asked to provide advice, but didn't know that HR was already involved in the dispute.
But lawyer Ms Cunningham suggests something "more elaborate" was as she corresponded with Dr Kate Searle, Dr Upton's line manager.
Ms Cunningham suggests that Ms Bumba and Dr Searle were attempting to ensure Ms Peggie got "properly punished" for pointing out that Dr Upton should not be using a woman's changing room.
"I think that is quite a jump," Ms Bumba replies.
She added: "I can confirm that's not accurate."

Hear, hear! And if CL2 could read/be bothered to read he/she could see the reference to Dr Beth Upton in the 3rd paragraph of the OP.

Thanks Bez, I can take over for a little while, think it should be over before I have to pop out

From TT:

J Trying to understand if just read 13.57 or the rest
IB I would have read it all. Probably should have referenced [another part]
J Exceptions. Do you know what that is referring to.
IB y
J Did you look at EA 2010
IB Yes, would have done as part of scoping for original policy

The way NC abruptly changes the subject - why not a 3rd space? look at this submission - look at thsi NHS Scotland admission form - your email on 3/1/24 - reminds me of fast bowling -

Inswinger, inswinger, inswinger, bouncer, outswinger, yorker.. where will the ball come from next?😄

I have just been reminded of MSP Kirsty Blackman, mother of two, standing in the Scottish Parliament and announcing that she does not know what sex she is because she hasn't had her chromosomes checked.

The image of Joanna Cherry behind her with her head in her hands in despair was all of us.

I have sat through so many epic MN threads. Allison Bailey. Roz Adams. Maya Forstater.

Usually I find them hilarious. The sheer witty comments from our MNetters. The sheer insanity from the TRAs.

But we have to keep fighting this nonsense again and again and again. I am reading TT and the heroic faithful recordings from our wonderful posters. I just have my head in my hands. Why, just why are we still fighting this bullshit? How did IB get up this morning and every other morning and think that she is on the right side of history? How did it get this far? How did ANY of it get this far?

It's fucking nuts. And Lord Praise all on Terf Island who say out loud 'This is fucking nuts'. And all the kudos and support in the world to the true Sheros who stand up to this insanity despite the real life diabolical impact it has on their jobs. Their careers. I doubt I would be that brave.

Sandie Peggie, more power to you. We are here and we support and you are incredible.

From TT:

J This code of practice
[missed - sound]
J Have you seen the cr in this case.
IB No. Not been there.
Now JR
JR Was court of appeals case in Croft part of your analysis
IB No
JR This is public sector equality duty. Please explain to tribunal which relevant to this

IB- KS coming to me as Eq lead for advice. Would have been my opportunity to defend w rights as well
😂😂😂

The tribunals are exhausting

We are done for the day

From TT:

IB Could be argued every PC could be relevant
JR And for DU
IB Gender reassignment, birth
JR You were asked q c women and t ppl working at board - whether women's privacy dignity and safety were sacrificed
IB No don't think so. Some individuals might feel that way

HR at Fife, referred this to EDI who don't have a written policy and don't understand the legalities of the Equality Act instead of the Legal Department.

There's a issue with line of management that's going to be difficult to ignore here.

Yes. IIRC Blackman thought she might have XY... possibly. I hope someone sat her down for a simple biology lesson

It's going to be Gillian Malone all day tomorrow.