NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #28

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25
Thread 26: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5335861-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-26
Thread 27: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5372582-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-27

Also see the ruling today about the police bias at counter protests for reference.

There are only 9, aren't there? Surely she can remember that. Sure, her email sig would look clunky, but thems the breaks.

There are several organisations I really, really , really want to have to take a "lessons learned" approach from this and for there to be a real long hard think about the email footer nonsense and the subtext to it all.

From TT (cont)

... agree.
NC Act permits service provider to exclude someone if exclusion is proportionate in achieving legitimate aim. Did you think if excluding t ppl from sss facilities would proportionate for other ppl
IB I wasn't aware of any concerns at that time so it didn't seem proportionate.
NC [to bundle] Sex Matter's submission to GRNHI [?]
JR Don't see how this will assist
J We'll see how we go
NC Please read . ..
NC Is there anything there that you now believe to be untrue or misleading. Not asking you to agree it's correct. But anything you disagree with.
IB Would have to do my own research. It's a page and a half.
NC If you don't know...
IB I don't know if there is anything in there that is untrue?
NC Please read part under 'Stonewall...'
NC Same q.
JR may have a witness who can be more helpful

SHOTS FIRED

If you're a graduate, never mind band 7, you should be able to parse a page-and-a-half in 30s and have the goods.

Given she doesn't know about Stonewall's policy but has recited the shite about biological sex not being clear and not knowing chromosomes, I think we might be mistaking her for someone who is a DEI lead rather than a lying transactivist at this point.

Actually thinking about it, it might not be a bad thing for EDI people to have the full list (and accurate ones, reassignment, not identity) in their footer. In alphabetical order to counteract accusations of bias.

Or they could just not, and know them and apply them where needed.

I'm not adverse to putting money on Ima Bumbler having friends in high places.
She can't have been the only person interviewed for that post.

Indeed.

This case isn't going to just be about the headline ruling is it?

There's so much more packed away in it.

It's a masterpiece in pwning the internet generated bullshite.

Fucking excellent point.
Shouldn't IB be declaring herself an ally of all the protected characteristics in her email signature as a DEI lead, not just one?

And this was what the Judge determined this morning when he told Northumbria Police to stop joining in Pride marches (see Linzi Smith is granted Judicial Review over police participation in Pride a couple of talks down on this section).

How can anyone say they represent 'inclusion', but only include specific groups?

Under this x-exam from NC, every thing on the page probably looks like a big jumble of letter-y things to IB

But where’s the smug satisfaction and virtue signalling in that? How will she be able to consider herself ‘stunning and brave’ by being an ally to disabled people? Why would she care about them?

Oooh handbags! A drive-by scolding.
No thank you. Off you pop.

Has she previously been or currently is an SNP member?!

That very access given to a man by NHS Fife to use the female changing room, may have potentially enabled voyeurism and exposure in the changing room on their premises. These are sexual offences. If a man is given the opportunity to gawk at the women undressing, and/or is also given chance to strips his kit off too. Not only without the women’s consent, but admonishing them if they dared to complain. I think NHS fife were creating a situation where sex offences could more easily occur on their work premises. Best scenario is that it is just carelessness and disregard for women. One don’t need to talk about anywhere outside of the hospital itself. I think they were creating unsafe work conditions for women on their very work premises.

Here's hoping. One thing I have noticed about declaring pronouns on your email signature: it is almost overwhelming women who do this. I rarely come across men who do it in my area of work.

Well if they had an impact assessment they could...

... Oh.

Shit.

Sucks to be them.

Smart people don't apply for bullshit jobs. It's possible she was the most "diverse" candidate available at the time.

Nice reminder to what her job is and how she is clearly shit at it. imagine not knowing stonewall stuff, Article 8, or not taking effing notes in meetings! The Scottish taxpayer needs to be asking for a refund

Once again I find myself eternally grateful that my infertility came to light in the noughties so I came under the care of medical professionals that knew to check my fallopian tubes for blockages and to send my DH into a little room with a paper cup and some 'special interest' magazines. I can't help but worry that today I would be greeted by lots of shrugging and someone muttering that as no-one can tell what sex anyone is so there is nothing they can do to help.

All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others.

Naomi finished

@nauticant has done an amazing job on these threads of which we are on number 27! I think she knows Beth's name

I'm fairly sure, when I log into my ancestry account and manage the five DNA profiles I have for friends and family and compare with other users, that I can tell which sex people are from their Chromosomes.

Isn't that because the majority of men don't see this whole thing as relevant to them in any way?

I doubt whether most feel any duty or inclination to support or resist genderism, or to think about it at all, for that matter.