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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #28

1000 replies

nauticant · 16/07/2025 12:09

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25
Thread 26: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5335861-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-26
Thread 27: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5372582-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-27

OP posts:
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27
NebulousDogWhistleIsReality · 16/07/2025 15:24

CunningLinguist2 · 16/07/2025 15:18

Dr B Upton's name is Beth. If we're naming the other parties, let's also use her first name, please.

His name. Dr Upton is male.

ickky · 16/07/2025 15:25

spannasaurus · 16/07/2025 15:22

I'd expect it from idiots on twitter (and some MPs) but surprised to hear a KC arguing that.

I think JR is a true believer and that is why she seems to get so angry and condescending when speaking to NC.

They way she pronounced Maya's surname was very disrespectful.

Justabaker · 16/07/2025 15:25

spannasaurus · 16/07/2025 15:10

JR Need to intervene. We will make obs re FWScotland - it's an abstract case re representation on public boards in Scotland. Not c toilets, etc

Does she really think the FWS judgment only affects representation on boards

That is one of the mantras that has been adopted by the hard core activists.

Waitwhat23 · 16/07/2025 15:25

I think we've seen blatant misgendering by their own team at every ET thus far.

I have been transfixed by TT and trying to wrestle my Malteasers off my small child who wants to 'share' but did IB actually say we can't tell can't tell what Upton's chromosomes are?

Loving NC for bringing up affirmation.

ickky · 16/07/2025 15:27

She did @Waitwhat23

Cailleach1 · 16/07/2025 15:27

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 16/07/2025 14:29

IB When you talk c tw and tm risk is significantly less.
IB TW are different from other men in level of threat they present

Where is IB's evidence of this?

The evidence from prison populations does not seem to support the assertions

What hope would women have of lessening the risks of male sexual offences/fetishes such as voyeurism and exposure in the female changing room in NHS Fife? When people like this are giving advice upon which decisions are made, and women asserting their rights are vilified for doing so. Open door policy for basically any man. Knowing that the overwhelmingly majority of sex crimes are committed by men. From this examination alone, I wouldn’t leave the well being of my cat up to her. I know she is far from alone.

BezMills · 16/07/2025 15:27

From TT

NC But you've said a separate space could be isolating, so that is a disadvantage
IB Potentially
NC [to bundle] We asked q c proportions men/women of board's employment. You said you thought board employed roughly 50/50
IB I said over 50%
NC Sorry, yes. A great deal over 50%

(how does she know, without doing all their chromosomes, anyway?)

NC Board knew when giving theses figures of 3 staff with t id - roughly right
JR Only third employees provided info c gender status..
NC Fair assumption it's right as order of magnitude?
IB Can't use this data as representative of organisation. Our disability data isn't recording isn't comprehensive, as I said
NC Not going to be in 100s
IB no
NC Have c 10,000 staff
IB Would be surprised if over 100
NC This signals to all these 1000s of staff they can't be confident that f spaces in hospital won't be f only
IB That would depend on how the w see id of t ppl
NC All this done for validation of t staff at expense of 8,500 w
IB Not done for validation
NC Don't have to do this. Could offer t staff use of a third space.
IB If there was. Don't believe was a third space
NC Could you address their rights by a third space
IB Don't know how t ppl would fee about that - not discussed
JR need to put assumptions here directly to witness
NC You said you don't believe t ppl have been engaged with re feelings about third space. What about women
IB Don't know if women engaged with
NC You are HR and Eq lead. Your job is to make sure board looks after all its staff. To cater for rights. What did you do to protect dignity etc of f staff
IB Back to code. They could be excluded if proportionate.

(edit to put last tweet before break)

Boiledbeetle · 16/07/2025 15:28

Break

murasaki · 16/07/2025 15:28

Waitwhat23 · 16/07/2025 15:25

I think we've seen blatant misgendering by their own team at every ET thus far.

I have been transfixed by TT and trying to wrestle my Malteasers off my small child who wants to 'share' but did IB actually say we can't tell can't tell what Upton's chromosomes are?

Loving NC for bringing up affirmation.

Yes, it's amazing how when under pressure, the lying part of the brain gives up and they say what they really see, not what they've been told to.

ickky · 16/07/2025 15:28

5 minute break

Wee and tea, mustn't mix them up!

MarieDeGournay · 16/07/2025 15:30

from Herald
Ms Bumba also rejected the claim that women were impacted more harshly by allowing Dr Upton to use single-sex spaces, with Ms Cunningham stating that Sandie Peggie was disadvantaged by losing access to single-sex spaces.
Ms Bumba said she can't comment as she did not know the specific provisions arranged for Ms Peggie.

Ms Peggie didn't ask for or need 'specific provisions' - she needed implementation of workplace regs re single-sex facilities.

rebmacesrevda · 16/07/2025 15:30

"NC You are HR and Eq"

Nicely done.

Hoardasurass · 16/07/2025 15:31

Igneococcus · 16/07/2025 15:20

I made my students look at them too Grin

Monster 🫣

murasaki · 16/07/2025 15:31

rebmacesrevda · 16/07/2025 15:30

"NC You are HR and Eq"

Nicely done.

Yep, Equalities was always a post in HR where I worked, so blaming HR when you also are it doesn't fly.

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 16/07/2025 15:32

NC All this done for validation of t staff at expense of 8,500 w
IB Not done for validation
NC Don't have to do this. Could offer t staff use of a third space.
IB If there was. Don't believe was a third space
NC Could you address their rights by a third space
IB Don't know how t ppl would fee about that

Love this self own.

NotAtMyAge · 16/07/2025 15:33

spannasaurus · 16/07/2025 15:22

I'd expect it from idiots on twitter (and some MPs) but surprised to hear a KC arguing that.

But JR isn't just any KC. She's heavily invested in the side of history which is desperate to minimise the significance of the SC judgment.

123ZYX · 16/07/2025 15:33

From TT
…
NC Don't have to do this. Could offer t staff use of a third space.
IB If there was. Don't believe was a third space
…

So if there was no third space, where are women meant to change who don’t want to change with a transwoman?

witchesfly · 16/07/2025 15:34

Afternoon Wims,

I only managed to log in about 20 minutes ago and am playing catch up from today. Have I missed any belters?

viques · 16/07/2025 15:35

SternJoyousBee · 16/07/2025 12:38

Funny I don’t recall any mention of balance of rights from the NHSFife case or witnesses in Feb? Could it be that that has only been something that is being considered since April 16th?

Hmmmmm. You seem to have a point there.🤔

rebmacesrevda · 16/07/2025 15:36

NotAtMyAge · 16/07/2025 15:33

But JR isn't just any KC. She's heavily invested in the side of history which is desperate to minimise the significance of the SC judgment.

I wonder whether she foresaw how frequently she'd have to make a twat of herself infront of a judge when she signed up to that.

ickky · 16/07/2025 15:36

TT's afternoon's Tweets

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1945452737522503753.html

Greyskybluesky · 16/07/2025 15:36

Have I missed any belters?

Well.... 😄
How long have you got!

ThatCyanCat · 16/07/2025 15:36

123ZYX · 16/07/2025 15:33

From TT
…
NC Don't have to do this. Could offer t staff use of a third space.
IB If there was. Don't believe was a third space
…

So if there was no third space, where are women meant to change who don’t want to change with a transwoman?

With the transwoman. Because Fife doesn't believe they have a right to change away from men if men don't want them to.

Boiledbeetle · 16/07/2025 15:36

Looking to finish at 4

murasaki · 16/07/2025 15:37

witchesfly · 16/07/2025 15:34

Afternoon Wims,

I only managed to log in about 20 minutes ago and am playing catch up from today. Have I missed any belters?

Well Isla B said 'him' a few times. And didn't know about Stonewall's diversity champion scheme despite being EDI lead. And never did any staff surveys or risk assessments.

And NC is doing her thing, as ever.

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