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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #28

1000 replies

nauticant · 16/07/2025 12:09

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25
Thread 26: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5335861-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-26
Thread 27: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5372582-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-27

OP posts:
Thread gallery
27
Igneococcus · 16/07/2025 15:18

‘No one knows what their chromosomes are’
I do, I've looked at mine several times before.

13planets · 16/07/2025 15:18

To be fair, has IB actually said she thinks DrU is a woman? She said that it’s NC’s opinion DrU looks like a man. She didn’t disagree. Perhaps she is cleverer than we all think …a closet GC woman bringing The System down from within? That would be a lovely twist in the tale.

MummBRaaarrrTheEverLeaking · 16/07/2025 15:19

rebmacesrevda · 16/07/2025 15:14

Him. LOL.

A misgendering! There's been a terrible misgendering! (Fetches smelling salts and a whole zoo worth of support animals) 😂

ickky · 16/07/2025 15:19

Igneococcus · 16/07/2025 15:18

‘No one knows what their chromosomes are’
I do, I've looked at mine several times before.

Pervert!

BezMills · 16/07/2025 15:19

From TT

NC So what would you say if manager asked you what to do about a tw and a w both needing somewhere to change
IB I would refer to HR, and listen to concerns . This is hypothetical
NC Suggest you are ducking q cos see the problem. What's the alternative to this woman
IB Might be proportionate to move t person to another space if there are other gc ppl, or vice versa. Would have conversations incl with HR
NC It isolates the w who has to leave the cr just like it would DU
IB Could do
NC More proportionate way to protect DU would be to give him a private space rather than denying all the women of a sss. Would have dealt with his Art 8
IB Disagree. Depends on the individuals involved.
NC Letting DU use the f cr, not really about dignity, etc - but about affirming him. Making f colleagues take part in pretence he's a w
IB Disagree
NC Worse. He was bullying them by doing so and board allowed it.
IB Disagree
NC So all women had to accede to demands of one man.
IB No concerns were raised so I thought advice was proportionate at that time
NC PCP 2 - allowing staff to use faculties aligned with G
NC Statistical general differences between m/w. Allowing to id into opposite sex spaces bears more harshly on w than men
IB Don't agree with that in all ways
NC SP lost benefit of sss
IB I don't know what was arranged for SP specifically so can't comment

WearyAuldWumman · 16/07/2025 15:19

Butchyrestingface · 16/07/2025 15:16

Fife is a lovely place, btw. Notwithstanding the like of IB, BU and their captured employer. The accent can be a bit impenetrable.

I recommend the sleepy, picturesque coastal village of Elie for anyone seeking a short beach break. Burntisland also quite nice. Can't guarantee the weather, mind. But that's Scotland. ☀️🌧️☔️🌨️⛈️

Oy! Impenetrable?

Whadaeyethinkye'recaaain"impenetrable"hen?

Brawsunnydaythedaybytheway...

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 16/07/2025 15:19

ThatCyanCat · 16/07/2025 15:15

NC But other women were asked to do that
IB Not by me
NC What would be those women's option
IB That would be their management. I would support if they came to me, but not my place to say where they should change

What's the opposite of "I'm Spartacus"? Where everyone just starts pointing at everyone else and yelling "He's Spartacus!"

Love this 😂

GreenFriedTomato · 16/07/2025 15:20

MarieDeGournay · 16/07/2025 15:10

IB doing the 'it's more complicated than that' dance around DrU being a man. Which she has already admitted..
She's sounding very like DrU, in fact, no wonder when there was 'an incident' she leapt to his defence.

Agree. I keep expecting to hear the words biological and robot. Also no Dr. Upton but Beth. Sounds like they're BFF's

I thought I might have some sympathies for IB but I have none. She is irritating the hell out of me.
She is a full on TWAW handmaiden, bleating on about how biology isn't that that straightforward. She's not even sure she's a woman because you can't see your chromosomes .... Wtaf!

I've already torn my stress ball to shreds.

Igneococcus · 16/07/2025 15:20

ickky · 16/07/2025 15:19

Pervert!

I made my students look at them too Grin

chilling19 · 16/07/2025 15:20

nauticant · 16/07/2025 15:11

What we're seeing here are the grounds on which the genderists are hoping to overturn the Supreme Court judgment.

They can’t overturn it can they? They can only try and change the law?

ickky · 16/07/2025 15:21

Igneococcus · 16/07/2025 15:20

I made my students look at them too Grin

😱

ClawedButler · 16/07/2025 15:22

Funny how it's impossible to know what a woman is, but Upton DEFINITELY is one.

NebulousSupportPostcard · 16/07/2025 15:22

This has been so much worse than I expected.

I guess, on the positive side, it seems that IB had followed court instructions to avoid reading about tribunal to date. She is out of her depth on almost everything.

Binglebong · 16/07/2025 15:22

Any chance the summing up will be published? Definitely in the public interest.

ThatCyanCat · 16/07/2025 15:22

CunningLinguist2 · 16/07/2025 15:18

Dr B Upton's name is Beth. If we're naming the other parties, let's also use her first name, please.

Ok. It's Theodore.

spannasaurus · 16/07/2025 15:22

NotAtMyAge · 16/07/2025 15:17

That's a line I've seen a few spinning on Twitter since the judgment. "We accept that it's happened, but not that it has any wider implication than boards in Scotland." 🙄🙄

I'd expect it from idiots on twitter (and some MPs) but surprised to hear a KC arguing that.

TriesNotToBeCynical · 16/07/2025 15:22

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2025 15:04

In any kind of management role you should have good general knowledge of issues which may affect your line of work. This includes an awareness of the news etc. I've literally been on management courses telling me this.

Forstater is an area which has been massively publicised. And she doesn't seem to know if it's existence never mind it's relevance.

She doesn't know about Stonewall.

She doesn't know about the Equality Act.

This woman is so far out of her depth it HURTS.

She doesn't even seem to be aware that the NHS workforce is predominantly female. Does she know what health care is?

murasaki · 16/07/2025 15:22

I don't think I've seen someone display themselves to be so massively incompetent at an overpaid job since Paula Vennels.

DeanElderberry · 16/07/2025 15:24

gosh, NC is really getting stuck in

Genuine question, before the supreme court reading would NC have been free to state that DU/B 'looks male'? I mean, obviously he does, we've seen pictures, but back in the Spring when he was claiming to be not a robot and therefore female, could she have been honest without kickback?

Is DU/B present today?

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 16/07/2025 15:24

Greyskybluesky · 16/07/2025 15:14

Woah, why are we talking about "him" now??

Yes, yes we are!

ThatCyanCat · 16/07/2025 15:24

murasaki · 16/07/2025 15:22

I don't think I've seen someone display themselves to be so massively incompetent at an overpaid job since Paula Vennels.

Well to be fair, the top bosses haven't been called to give evidence.

murasaki · 16/07/2025 15:24

I'll stick with Upton, as it's his name.

Chariothorses · 16/07/2025 15:24

For the posters locked out of the Herald Scotland feed I still have access (so far).

3:19pm
Ms Cunningham asks whether it would have been "proportionate" to solve the problem by asking the trans individual to change elsewhere.
Ms Bumba disagreed.
The lawyer then asks whether the issue was really about Dr Upton "invading" the single-sex space, he was "bullying" women. She asks whether it's fair to say the health board allowed this.
"I disagree," Ms Bumba said.
Ms Bumba also rejected the claim that women were impacted more harshly by allowing Dr Upton to use single-sex spaces, with Ms Cunningham stating that Sandie Peggie was disadvantaged by losing access to single-sex spaces.
Ms Bumba said she can't comment as she did not know the specific provisions arranged for Ms Peggie.
The lawyer references Ms Bumba's earlier evidence, where she suggested using a separate changing facility could be "isolating" for Dr Upton. Is that the case for Sandie Peggie?
"Potentially," says Ms Bumba.
3:15pm
Naomi Cunningham asks Isla Bumba whether it would have been appropriate to let Dr Beth Upton use a private space to change to protect the Dr's privacy and safety.
Ms Bumba said isolating that one individual would not have upheld their dignity when "no other individuals were expected to use a private facility".
But Ms Cunningham points out that Ms Peggie was encouraged to change in a toilet or cupboard if she did not feel comfortable.
"Not by me," Ms Bumba said.
Ms Cunningham asks what Ms Bumba has to say to the women who were not comfortable changing in front of a transgender individual.
"I don't think it's my place to decide that," she said.
Ms Bumba said she would have recommended a conversation between all parties to get a bigger picture of the problem.
2:58pm
What about women who can't share a changing room at all with someone who is male.
Ms Bumba said "generally speaking" her guidance was inclusive but admits that in some "individual circumstances", a minority of people may not find these inclusive.
Ms Cunningham then asks whether the guidance wasn't inclusive for women who have been the victim of sexual assault.
"There will be many women who have suffered sexual abuse that will still look at a trans woman and think they are a trans woman," Ms Bumba said.
The same is true for women who may be generally uncomfortable changing in front of a transgender person.

murasaki · 16/07/2025 15:24

ThatCyanCat · 16/07/2025 15:24

Well to be fair, the top bosses haven't been called to give evidence.

True...

anyolddinosaur · 16/07/2025 15:24

Still catching up but @ThatPithySheep what I meant on the other thread was that I didnt think Sandie would be satisfied with the verdict of the disciplinary, she'd want more vindication than that. She certainly deserves more vindication as no way did Fife follow it's process correctly.

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