NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #28

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25
Thread 26: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5335861-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-26
Thread 27: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5372582-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-27

I feel lost in this. It sounds like pp are listening to the tribunal but this is on a news app today

Nurse who complained about trans doctor using changing rooms is cleared

Sandie Peggie was accused of gross misconduct and ‘misgendering’ her colleague

Is it something else?

From TT

Discrimination re the Eq Act
IB Yes
NC What did you think might be discriminatory under EA
IB Followed code of practice on that specific aspect
NC Code of practice you were looking at - was that c how employers should treat staff?
IB Specifies service providers. Not specifically

I revise my earlier opinion that IB was doing ok.

This is grim.

I see what you there 😉 doffs hat 🧢👏🏻

It's worse.

This is supposed to be here chosen specialist professional field.

It's career suicide. She either is a total liar or total oblivious to the world around her.

I love waits haikus

They make me feel warm inside

She should publish them.

Re the Equality Act has ALWAYS had sex based exemptions...

...another pile up incoming?

From TT

employers
NC Treating is as best approach?
IB yes
[missed]
NC Did you take view it was more inclusive to let t id m use f cr
IB To use them to use space align with gender
NC Not to women eg religious who can't agree
IB That would depend what they base beliefs on

Sorry wims, got to go do school run. Can anyone else take over?

Oh god. It's coming.

IB generally it's the inclusive approach. There will be a minority who may feel it's not inclusive cos of their specific beliefs but generally incl

That's not what the Supreme Court has clarified that the law has always been.

Isla is making this too easy for naomi.

It takes the fun out of it.

It's a separate disciplinarian panel that NHS Fife were holding into Dr Uptons claims of harassment and patient neglect against Sandie Peggie

From TT
NC not inclusive of women with religious beliefs who can't share with male IB generally it's the inclusive approach. There will be a minority who may feel it's not inclusive cos of their specific beliefs but generally incl NC Do you know how many staff have these religious
beliefs IB no NC Any steps taken to find out IB no. Don't ask that NC not inclusive of women with sex assault history IB Would depend if they think a tw is a woman or not. That's only relevant to ppl who don't think a tw is not a woma NC Any idea how many staff think that

Between 1-5 trans people, didn't she think?

Reminder:

The Equality Act has ALWAYS had clauses to EXCLUDE on the basis of sex.

From TT

NC not inclusive of women with religious beliefs who can't share with male
IB generally it's the inclusive approach. There will be a minority who may feel it's not inclusive cos of their specific beliefs but generally incl
NC Do you know how many staff have these religious beliefs
IB no
NC Any steps taken to find out
IB no. Don't ask that
NC not inclusive of women with sex assault history
IB Would depend if they think a tw is a woman or not. That's only relevant to ppl who don't think a tw is not a woma
NC Any idea how many staff think that

The missing impact assessment...

...biting her on the arse.

No it's the same case, it still hasn't become clear how NHS Fifes last-minute statement is going to impact on it.
As far as I can see it's just a continuation of what went on before.

Some of us got remote access, but are not allowed comment directly, so we are only commenting on '3rd party' eg TT .
TT are available on Nitter and X
Tribunal Tweets (@tribunaltweets) | nitter.poast.org
and the Herald are doing live coverage but it's a bit clunky, more of a regular summing up
Live: Sandie Peggie tribunal against NHS Fife resumes | The Herald

Why would the DEI lead need to know how many staff have religious beliefs which require certain accommodations?

NC Do you know how many staff have these religious beliefs
IB no
NC Any steps taken to find out
IB no. Don't ask that

Here we go again - you did not do an assessment of the impact on others, you did not intend to, you haven't even attempted to collect the data

It's solely about the T

Ok thanks for posts explaining

Ffs

I'll try to keep up @BettyBooper 's excellent work.

From TT
IB no
NC Any steps taken to find out
IB no
NC Any woman with no particular beliefs re G I and is frightened to see a man walk in
JR We've had this q a number of times. Depends on passing - you wouldn't know.
NC Haven't had that q
IB WOuldn't think it accurate generalisation to
say women would see a man walk in.
NC Your inclusion depends on women seeing tw as women and acting accordingly
IB Don't need to have that view, Some ppl will lean more towards diversity aspects. Some w may not think twaw but might not mind them in the space
NC Not very inclusive of various categories of women.
IB No. But can't generalise about all the women in those groups.
NC What about the third aim. If necessary to protect R2 rights or for diversity and inclusion in workplace, is appropriate use of facilities

Proving once again that DEI has stopped being about disability, religion and sexual orientation, and is only interested in trans related issues... which it still doesn't do any research about.