NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #28

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25
Thread 26: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5335861-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-26
Thread 27: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5372582-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-27

Na. Hanlon's razor applies here; "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

She's just that fucking thick rather than there being too much coercion going on.

From TT

NC [ to bundle] Formal doc is board's response to the claims. This is the decision to allow R2 [DU] to use f cr is to meet those three aims.
JR This doc written by lawyers
Judge Any witness coming to respond to this
JR No
J Qs are good to ask if no other witness coming

She's claiming this, but he obviously didn't pass to Sandie (or anyone with half an eye or ear) so what does it matter if he could potentially fool a blind, deaf Martian? Sandie knew he was a man and he is.

Which is totally what you would expect from someone so utterly ill equipped for the position that she holds. She has no formal HR training or experience and absolutely no legal knowledge whatsoever. She was clearly employed because she is as ignorant of biological reality as the rest of them. Or is prepared to pretend/lie about it.

Well, anyone who gives it any thought will see it's a load of bollocks. Believing in it requires not thinking about it.

It seems to be the only way to make transwomen are women work in their heads

These are very wise words.

Judge Any witness coming to respond to this
JR No
J Qs are good to ask if no other witness coming

...and under the bus she goes.

From TT

JR Lawyer would be best person to address this.
J Not always a lawyer
NC [to IB ]You are the lead on this. Is there anyone you can think of would be better placed to answer qs than you.
IB re someone on granting access to tw to spaces. I would be, on advice, but not necessarily

IB "There was no reason for me to think that would happen in Fife," she replied.
I'm hearing it in a Maggie Smith/Miss Jean Brodie voice😃

See my previous point about Hanlon's Razor.

She works in Fife. She should know about Dolatowski, Green and Scott.

Oh dear, this is cringe worthy. Bumba is hopeless - utterly incompetent.

From TT

the decision maker.
NC Can you help tribunal re which rights under human rights act being referred to.
IB Art 8?
NC How do you think this serves DU's Art 8 rights?
IB Do you have a copy of the Art 8
NC If you don't know, we should move on. If you are the best person

There was no reason to think that a male member of staff asking for access to the female changing room would raise any issues whatsoever. Cos this is Fife.

Ok, then....

(I stand by my two previous posts).

https://x.com/tribunaltweets/status/1945478856787267977

So, we get to the heart of the matter, what are these rights for Dr Upton you're talking about? Well, quite.

Agreed.

There will often be only 1 band 7 on shift in a while Emergency Department for example.

Many wards won't have a band 7 on many shifts it's that senior in nursing.

Band 5 are the nursey nurses, band 6 are the junior sisters who can run the shift and band 7 are senior sisters. There aren't many in each area due to them being that senior.

Once you get above a band 7 there are v few nurses working with patients at that point. Nearly all management.

I know plenty of nurses with specialist skills, post graduation qualifications, lots and lots of clinical responsibility who are not yet and may never be band 7. For example, some of the nurse practitioners in Minor Injuries are only band 6.

For this person to both be in a band 7 position and lack the understanding of what that entails for responsibility is really quite shocking.

I'd make a good guess IB lives in Edinburgh and gets the train up to Kirkcaldy. I don't blame her at all, I would. And I'm from there!

From TT

NC If you don't know, we should move on. If you are the best person to ask re the decision, tribunal will need to make
NC You gave the advice. This is the board saying this is why decision
JR It isn't. Witness didn't say she mentioned Art 8 in her advice. Need to put Art 8 to her - she may understand the concepts.
NC can read out.

I cannot bare JR's interruptions, she is so rude and sounds condescending.

Bad things don't happen in Fife.

No bad people live in Fife. No crime occurs in Fife. Fife is the land of Utopia where everything is perfect.

I’m surprised no one appears to have briefed IB properly. What about her line manager? It can’t be an accident that she is so ill prepared - why are her “team” just letting her look like a total fool?

NC killing her with kindness there. Gave her what looks like a way out of the chair, but really it's confirmation that she's stuck there and it's all on her.

She will realise at some point this evening, if she didn't already, she's the NHS Fife Board's Jail Cover Dummy.

From TT
JR should be given to witness.
NC It's very short. Reads out.
J Do you understand.
IB Ye-es. Hard to hear you.
J Need to be fair to witness. Has asked to see it. There's also another piece referred to, would need that too.
NC Art 8 is in bundle. [they read]

Oh I've no doubt she's thick 😂

I mean the brainwashing that goes on at school/ uni, where young people are taught to believe that it's mean to exclude men from places where women take their clothes off. So as adults they lack (or disregard) their own self-protective instincts.