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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #28

1000 replies

nauticant · 16/07/2025 12:09

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25
Thread 26: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5335861-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-26
Thread 27: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5372582-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-27

OP posts:
Thread gallery
27
LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 16/07/2025 14:32

Augarden · 16/07/2025 14:29

IB "TW are different from other men in level of threat they present"

They aren't though. That's the whole issue. Once that is grasped surely the whole house of cards comes crumbling down.

More importantly, Isla has just stated on the record, in court, that TW are men.

Hoardasurass · 16/07/2025 14:32

BettyBooper · 16/07/2025 14:10

From TT

IB Someone who made no changes and had no logic to what they were doing, I would think otherwise.
NC But the logic. Woman in cr and man walks in saying I'm a woman and allowed to be here. Policy makes it impossible for her to object - can't distinguish between tw and man with a ponytail.
IB We didn't have a policy in Fife.
NC Your advice - don't have to call it a policy
IB If someone has a concern should raise it with their management and steps would then be taken.
NC Being surprised by a man in cr would be worse if the woman had history of sex assault.
IB Any concerns, should raise with line management.
NC Do you know proportion of staff have suffered sex assault in past
IB Don't have that info
NC You don't collect it
IB No
NC Do you know how many women in your staff would be likely to have suffered pas sex assault

The property with IB say that anyone with a problem with the policy should bring it up with their manager is that sandie did twice and she was basically told tuff shit its the law that you must validate the man with your body (paraphrasing here) because of IBs advice

Boiledbeetle · 16/07/2025 14:33

Greyskybluesky · 16/07/2025 14:30

I genuinely can't believe IB mentioned Isla Bryson without prompting. Trying to get ahead of a potential question, perhaps? But all it's done is cement the image of that person in everybody's mind.
Bad move.

Edited

I imagine the voice in her head was going don't mention Isla Bryson don't mention Isla Bryson don't mention Isla Bryson don't mention Isla Bryson.. It had to pop out of her mouth at some point.

13planets · 16/07/2025 14:33

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 16/07/2025 14:32

More importantly, Isla has just stated on the record, in court, that TW are men.

She is reaaallllly messing this up.

rebmacesrevda · 16/07/2025 14:33

You know, the brainwashing really worries me because women like IB will Be Kind to men they should be wary of. They will inevitably be assaulted at some point (as so many women are) and then they'll be gaslit into thinking it didn't happen, or it wasn't assault, or silenced in the spirit of Being Kind. It's coercive control of an entire generation.

Boiledbeetle · 16/07/2025 14:34

Back on

lechiffre55 · 16/07/2025 14:34

I know we are biased but to me this looks like it's going very badly for IB.
Tenner on IB ends up crying.

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2025 14:34

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 16/07/2025 14:29

IB When you talk c tw and tm risk is significantly less.
IB TW are different from other men in level of threat they present

Where is IB's evidence of this?

The evidence from prison populations does not seem to support the assertions

She's the EDI lead.

She'll have the evidence as part of the risk assessment she drew up when forming her formal written policy on trans people and shared facilities with the opposite sex.

Oh wait.

She lost that with the homework about Stonewall and understanding the Equality Act. She left it in a folder marked 'top secret' on board a train.

SionnachRuadh · 16/07/2025 14:35

I know things have been weird up in Scotland for a while, but Fife NHS can't possibly have thought "we didn't have a policy, everything was ad hoc, and we left the difficult stuff to the work experience kid" was a viable line of defence.

Waitwhat23 · 16/07/2025 14:35

ChimpanzeeThatMonkeyNews · 16/07/2025 14:32

That’s almost a Haiku!

I'll have you know I've been sitting here looking like an eccentric, flicking my fingers out to count out the syllables! Where did I fail?

I am fond of haikus. So few words to say so much.

I like a haiku
But as I flick my fingers
I look a bit mad.

BezMills · 16/07/2025 14:35

Waitwhat23 · 16/07/2025 14:28

Ode to NC

Best line of today -
NC But DU looks male.
No fucking about!

NC : But DU looks male
IB : but that's like just your opinion maaaaan

Boiledbeetle · 16/07/2025 14:36

13planets · 16/07/2025 14:33

She is reaaallllly messing this up.

Totally.

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2025 14:36

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 16/07/2025 14:32

More importantly, Isla has just stated on the record, in court, that TW are men.

Transphobe. I hope she faces a disciplinary for her unacceptable views.

BettyBooper · 16/07/2025 14:36

From TT

NC I was reminding you that the advice was that ppl were allowed to use f cr and vice versa. Aims served - protecting and upholding DU rights / inclusion in workplace / provision in the workplace. Have you looked at grounds of resistance?

Butchyrestingface · 16/07/2025 14:36

Waitwhat23 · 16/07/2025 14:23

Found it

So you have. ⭐️

So at least she can always go back to bar-tending. The only problem is, if she can't tell the difference between a man and woman, will she be any good at differentiating the more subtle distinction of who looks over 25 versus who looks under 25 for the purpose of ID?

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 16/07/2025 14:36

I'm getting a bit of a feeling that the foundation of a lot of IB's decisions is 'because it makes me feel better'

Hoardasurass · 16/07/2025 14:37

SionnachRuadh · 16/07/2025 14:35

I know things have been weird up in Scotland for a while, but Fife NHS can't possibly have thought "we didn't have a policy, everything was ad hoc, and we left the difficult stuff to the work experience kid" was a viable line of defence.

Yes they will have because that's the Scottish government's line on everything

Lougle · 16/07/2025 14:37

I'd be feeling so sick. NC is formidable.

ickky · 16/07/2025 14:37

nauticant · 16/07/2025 14:26

What I like about this part of NC's argument style is that she stands in front of a zealot, says all kinds of heresies the zealot has not been presented with before, and, were they to be, would shout down in a greatly agitated state, and this gets the zealot to say absurd things.

I love it. She presents perfectly reasonable statements, gets them to agree then asks the killer question, which they cannot answer without becoming a bigot!

AngelinaJoyless · 16/07/2025 14:37

DiamondThrone · 16/07/2025 14:30

BettyBooper · Today 14:22
From TT
[missed]
NC men generally stronger/more of a threat to women.
IB When you talk c tw and tm risk is significantly less.
NC You are saying men in general are greater threat to women than vice
IB TW are different from other men in level of threat they present

Wait, did she say that transwomen are different from other men? Is that a quote?

So she admits that Beth Upton is a man?

Edited

That's what I thought too. So they are men then.

guinnessguzzler · 16/07/2025 14:37

Boiledbeetle · 16/07/2025 14:33

I imagine the voice in her head was going don't mention Isla Bryson don't mention Isla Bryson don't mention Isla Bryson don't mention Isla Bryson.. It had to pop out of her mouth at some point.

100%. And now she's like, 'I mentioned him once but I think I got away with it' 😂

Merrymouse · 16/07/2025 14:37

I think it's notable that her understanding of 'trans' also appears to be all over the place. She is differentiating between the rights of people who pass and don't pass, and gives the impression that she just hasn't given any of the issues much thought.

Waitwhat23 · 16/07/2025 14:37

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2025 14:34

She's the EDI lead.

She'll have the evidence as part of the risk assessment she drew up when forming her formal written policy on trans people and shared facilities with the opposite sex.

Oh wait.

She lost that with the homework about Stonewall and understanding the Equality Act. She left it in a folder marked 'top secret' on board a train.

Didn't that happen in Wales too? All the Impact Assessments just suddenly and mysteriously disappeared.

PrettyDamnCosmic · 16/07/2025 14:37

Merrymouse · 16/07/2025 14:23

Is she a junior member of staff?

No, she is not a junior. She is a Band 7 which is the same as a Senior Sister.

BezMills · 16/07/2025 14:38

I think we're back to 'at it gender' and 'rapist gender' cf thon Scottish Liz Truss loddie that was FM between piece time and school dinners that wednesday.

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