NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #27

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions wereFri provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25
Thread 26: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5335861-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-26

But would anyone want it?

It's due to start on Wednesday morning, 16th.

Thanks for the new thread

I’m in Australia and had to look this case up.

Beth Upton (birth name Theodore) is a man, over six feet tall, and doesn't even have a Gender Recognition Certificate.

Theodore (now Beth) started transitioning three years ago.

Theodore (now Beth) claims the right to use the women's changing room because Theodore (now Beth) thinks he is a woman.

Why is the NHS letting this Doctor treat patients??

Upton has also said, under oath, that if a female patient requests a female doctor then he would still treat them.

He also stated that he's a biological woman

There's a group of activists who just go from one public body/3rd sector organisation to the next in Scotland. If you see a name showing themselves up in a ET one place, you'll see their name pop up somewhere else. The disgraced trustees from ERCC have just moved on to another policy influencing position.

It's like the song 'round and round and round it goes, which idiot will it stop at? Nobody knows'.

Bumba will be seen at Engender or one of the many the indoctrinated Scot Gov funded organisations next, I guarantee it.

For 60 grand a year, I'll offer to wander around saying "pronouns blah blah, inclusion blah blah, be kind , I'll take further guidance on that, blah blah".

Don't know how I'd cope in a court, mind. If my voice doesn't tell idiots to fuck off, my face does! 😂

And of course if it all blows up horribly, then you can just go 'the advice I gave has resulted in a humiliating employment tribunal in which your organisation has proven themselves to be venal and inept? Oh dear! Well, you should have taken my advice with a grain of salt and done your own research! That's all on you!'

Aka the Stonewall defence.

Thanks @nauticantand others for their commentary. Looking forward to Wednesday

The good old reddit logic of I am a biological entity and I identify as a woman therefore I am a biological woman.

Then he needs his license revoked. Surely his “evidence” is grounds to have his medical license revoked?

DEI posts are serious and important jobs if done properly, and by that I mean, if done by someone who understands the law and is able to develop and monitor policies that balance the rights and responsibilities of employers and employees across all of the sometimes competing protected characteristics, etc.

My guess is that they probably need an even higher grade post, perhaps shared between a couple of hospitals, with lower grade officers on each site, reporting to the lead. Isla Bumba's role as was previously set out on the website was obviously ridiculously sized and remunerated for a graduate without relevant expertise or experience. But expertise is sorely needed and I hope someone is appointed who will enjoy teasing out the actually complex issues that will arise.

I have wondered during this case what her qualifications or experience were for the job, especially at that salary. So much more than an experienced nurse like Sandy would be getting.

I've been involved in some DEI stuff and it was all to do with making sure websites/documents were suitable for those who were using assistive technology, ensuring hiring processes didn't have unintentional bias, disability access for buildings or making sure that women taking time out of their careers to have children aren't disadvantaged etc. etc. That's proper DEI stuff, it's ensuring equality of opportunity and so on.

DEI roles seem too often to be a highly-paid job doled out to someone who's only just finished university on the basis that "young people understand this pronoun stuff". They're buoyed up on gender ideology and trans rights, which seems to take priority - it becomes more rainbows and less ramps for wheelchairs.

I don't see how this isn't grounds for investigation. He's admitted that he'd present himself when a female patient asks for a female doctor and she'd have to be confrontational about it - actively refuse him when he arrives - to prevent him treating her. How can that be acceptable?

I've done equality impact assessments before, and, done properly, they are pretty demanding and take a lot of work to get right.

I did an Audit for an NHS Trust where in the blurb about the DEI person they mentioned working at Lush as previous experience and seemed to have no other qualifications other than being trans themselves.

When patients are dying due to lack of nurses and doctors just WHY? It's appalling. The NHS really isn't fit for purpose any more. The idea of it is great. The reality is terrible.

On the NHS audit we have yet to see an EqIA done properly. Many are not done at all.

If I recall correctly he also said that the only way he'd not treat them was if they said they didn't want to be treated by him, but because the reason would be because he's male, then he'd assume they were being transphobic.

The added poison here is that if such a thing were to happen, he could make a complaint about an abusive patient and get them barred from having any treatment by the hospital whatsoever.

I think the GMC were swamped with complaints from the public following the Feb part of the ET, and they made a statement on their website about needing to await the outcome of the ET.

The regulatory bodies all have processes to follow, and there is a hierarchy of which organisations are expected to complete their own investigations before the next one will have enough information to decide whether they need to investigate too.

I think NC will almost certainly reiterate the "career-changing for one of them" aspect of her case during her final day of summing up. And I'm guessing the GMC will feel compelled to make another statement to clarify their own position, after the tribunal presents its findings.

This is obviously for joke purposes, as it is not the correct board - but is a genuinely compelling question:

AIBU for asking if I am the only one checking my emails frequently and wondering if anyone else who applied for online access has heard back from the ET yet please? 😁

Did he say at one point that if a patient responded to him as Sandie did, he would have that patient declared whatever the term is for when a doctor has the right to refuse treatment?

As many people have said, pronouns and rainbow lanyards don't cost much in comparison to the sorts of interventions required to tackle inequalities based on disability, race etc

And what was Sandie's terrible behaviour warranting her suspension and that would justify withholding treatment from a patient?

Ah yes the awful crime of asking a male person to leave the female changing room. As you can see clearly shocking behaviour that was greeted with a totally appropriate response.

It's insane, when so many people are affected by discrimination based on sex, race, disability etc, that DEI has become all about the less than 0.5% of the population who are trans.