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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #27

1000 replies

nauticant · 13/07/2025 08:26

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions wereFri provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25
Thread 26: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5335861-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-26

OP posts:
Thread gallery
12
ThatDaringMintCritic · 16/07/2025 12:10

Can't believe the Datix was flagged as a hate incident.

PinkDD · 16/07/2025 12:10

maltravers · 16/07/2025 12:02

Surely an EDI lead should be considering the impact on others with a protected characteristic. Did she think her job was only about Trans?

this shows why the SC ruling was so bloody important. It means that for 10 years - so since IB was a young teenager, don't forget - almost everyone was mis-interpreting the law. And the only ones who DID seem to understand or question the law were the women (and some men) who put their heads above the parapet.

This is what is being lost, i think, in a lot of the commentary - there are people in the job-world now who grew up with this mis-information and can't comprehend that everything they have been told about the law was incorrect. To be fair, it must be very hard to wrap your 25-year old head round that.

Some of us had been fighting in our professional lives for separate women's changing rooms and not just having "you can use the men's when they are quite finished, but you'll have to guard the door because we can't stop them coming back in because they forgot something". Those who have been told that there is no such thing as sex, only gender, must rewire their brains.

MarieDeGournay · 16/07/2025 12:11

BettyBooper · 16/07/2025 12:09

From TT

IB - from the Datix, it sounded like comments about trans status and it was flagged by the person who wrote it as a hate incident, suggests discriminatory
JR - we have a copy of the Datix, you've mentioned there were comments about persons trans status, what do you read there
IB - says on Nurse A's comments about Drs trans status, chromosomes ref to convicted rapist.
JR - and what about the following para
IB - suggests Dr tried to end convo, seek mediation, but Nurse would not accept that
JR - what about escalation of behaviours mentioned
IB - it says an escalation of prior behaviours

!!!!!!!

Well that's all been written off by NHS Fife now, hasn't it?

MyAmpleSheep · 16/07/2025 12:11

maltravers · 16/07/2025 12:05

Well you only have to follow the news. Unless you close your mind to the other side of the argument to enable you to ignore it of course.

Young people don’t follow the news. And even if they did, it would be easy to dismiss any GC thoughts as bigotry. It’s enormously unlikely that someone of IB’s life experience would have the sober thought to connect the outside world of politics and debate with the “right side of history” work she was involved in professionally. It would be a real “are we the baddies” moment. I’m not making excuses for her because (presumably) her role was to put some original thought into things; she’s a graduate and that’s supposed to be the distinguishing feature of having a degree. But I’m not surprised.

BettyBooper · 16/07/2025 12:12

From TT

IB it says an escalation of prior behaviours reported so that it could be investigated.
JR - you spoke to ED & Maggie, what did you say
IB - hard for me to recall exactly what was said but in general a troubling incident
<missed a q & a>
JR - referring to coverage on GB News, elsewhere, what was that
IB - said that a nurse had complained about a trans doctor
JR - what was your involvement
IB - there was a request for comment, I was not in, but when I came in I could see that there were a number of articles
JR - you mentioned a meeting, who attended

ArabellaScott · 16/07/2025 12:12

PinkDD · 16/07/2025 11:55

Still none the clearer about what Once for Scotland is. Can i assume that the idea behind it is that they would produce one policy that all of the boards could use? so that there would be no further need of cribbing someone else's homework, attempting to rewrite it and coming up with nonsense?

Because as a concept it actually sounds quite good - no need to duplicate the EDI work 14 times.

Not completely sure i agree. Different boards have different demographics and needs need to be considered individually.

nauticant · 16/07/2025 12:13

Continuation thread:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5374630-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-28

Two requests. (1) Could people continue to post on this thread and only move over to the new thread once this one is full. (2) No need to add posts thanking me, just add a reaction to the OP on thread #28 if you're minded to do that.

OP posts:
Cailleach1 · 16/07/2025 12:13

SternlyMatthews · 16/07/2025 12:09

They betray their stance with
"While no formal sanctions have been imposed"

So, they can’t prove she did anything wrong, but they want to impose sanctions on this woman for daring to stand up for her rights anyway. Pour encourager les autres. Even now. I think there should be an investigation into them.

PinkDD · 16/07/2025 12:14

JR - next email from KS to you, suggests a chat, did you have a chat that day
IB - I feel like I maybe spoke to her on the desk phone, to agree if I would pop down to ED, but something came up and I never managed to get down there
JR - your email says you didn't pop down,

(from T/T)
so she had a nice 50k job, and only about 5 (maybe) trans people to issue policy for etc, and she didn't have time to "pop down" for what she referred to as an "unpleasant incident". Baffling. What on earth did she do all day?

maltravers · 16/07/2025 12:14

BettyBooper · 16/07/2025 12:12

From TT

IB it says an escalation of prior behaviours reported so that it could be investigated.
JR - you spoke to ED & Maggie, what did you say
IB - hard for me to recall exactly what was said but in general a troubling incident
<missed a q & a>
JR - referring to coverage on GB News, elsewhere, what was that
IB - said that a nurse had complained about a trans doctor
JR - what was your involvement
IB - there was a request for comment, I was not in, but when I came in I could see that there were a number of articles
JR - you mentioned a meeting, who attended

Oh no, accountability!

ickky · 16/07/2025 12:15

@Mrsmounjaro

You could log off and then try to re-join, but it will probably be during a break that they will let people back into the room.

RayonSunrise · 16/07/2025 12:15

Boiledbeetle · 16/07/2025 11:22

I don't think I'd want to be Isla Bumba today. She can never have envisaged this is where her decisions and advice would End up.

I suspect that like a lot of young people, the thought-terminating cliché “TWAW” did just as it was intended to do to her and then she didn’t bother to think through what the consequences of her “inclusive,” cribbed-from-other-trusts policy would be.

I think a lot of zealous young people will be waking up right around now.

MarieDeGournay · 16/07/2025 12:15

So... there are fewer than 5 trans-IDed employees, and no complaints about them sharing changing rooms so far -well, with such a small number, that's not surprising.
The there IS a complaint about one of them sharing a changing room, and instead of it being treated as a even possibly a valid complaint, it's presume to be an anti-trans hate crime!

NotAtMyAge · 16/07/2025 12:16

Redshoeblueshoe · 16/07/2025 10:38

Linzi won. Northumbria Police kicked out of Pride

More good news!!!

Sortumn · 16/07/2025 12:16

So no minutes or list of attendees.

BettyBooper · 16/07/2025 12:16

From TT

IB - I can't recall specifically (mentions a number of names)
JR - what happened at that meeting
IB - I was called in half way through the meeting, I was asked about what support we had offered to the dr concerned
JR - what about the 2nd meeting?
IB - it was few days later
JR - same people invited?
IB - but not everyone could attend because of short notice
JR - did you make any contribution to the 2nd meeting?
IB - I mentioned that GC beliefs needed to be respected , but that NHS staff need to act with care and compassion
JR - what happened next after these 2 meetings
IB - the only other involvement I had was in a short lived working group to consider if we should develop our own policy or wait for OfS policy
JR - an email, action list, progressing a policy is that what you ref'd to

ChimpanzeeThatMonkeyNews · 16/07/2025 12:17

PinkDD · 16/07/2025 12:14

JR - next email from KS to you, suggests a chat, did you have a chat that day
IB - I feel like I maybe spoke to her on the desk phone, to agree if I would pop down to ED, but something came up and I never managed to get down there
JR - your email says you didn't pop down,

(from T/T)
so she had a nice 50k job, and only about 5 (maybe) trans people to issue policy for etc, and she didn't have time to "pop down" for what she referred to as an "unpleasant incident". Baffling. What on earth did she do all day?

Polishing her Rainbow Lanyard, I reckon.

WhatAMessWales · 16/07/2025 12:17

@Mrsmounjaro I've fallen off the call several times (fat thumbs on my phone and a wobbly internet connection) and been readmitted very promptly. Try leaving and returning, while checking your settings as suggested above.

rebmacesrevda · 16/07/2025 12:17

maltravers · 16/07/2025 12:05

Well you only have to follow the news. Unless you close your mind to the other side of the argument to enable you to ignore it of course.

It depends which news you follow though. If you don't want to pay for it, you've got BBC and Guardian, who will continue with the TWAW mantra despite all evidence to the contrary.

Justkeepingplatesspinning · 16/07/2025 12:18

PinkDD · 16/07/2025 11:55

Still none the clearer about what Once for Scotland is. Can i assume that the idea behind it is that they would produce one policy that all of the boards could use? so that there would be no further need of cribbing someone else's homework, attempting to rewrite it and coming up with nonsense?

Because as a concept it actually sounds quite good - no need to duplicate the EDI work 14 times.

If there was one policy for everything for the whole of Scottish NHS it would help consistency and reduce confusion when moving jobs etc. It would also mean many fewer highly paid jobs to create such policy in all the different health boards.

MarieDeGournay · 16/07/2025 12:18

from TT
IB - I mentioned that GC beliefs needed to be respected , but that NHS staff need to act with care and compassion
..unless they are dealing with Sandie Peggie, obvs, in which case she's guilty until proven in need of reflective practice😠

viques · 16/07/2025 12:18

maltravers · 16/07/2025 11:26

I suspect they are trying to hint it is SP who needs the reflective practice discussion (ie is in the wrong) without saying so and making their legal position worse.

Shame. Should be Upton getting the reflective practice discussion, but would probably reframe it as “ the look at me, and tell me which colour scrubs suit my colouring best” discussion.

maltravers · 16/07/2025 12:18

Asked about what support she’s offered DU, but not SP. But no prejudging, oh no.

PinkDD · 16/07/2025 12:18

IB - I mentioned that GC beliefs needed to be respected , but that NHS staff need to act with care and compassion

they all felt completely free to ignore that bit, then

If her default answer was "go to HR" what is the point of her?

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 16/07/2025 12:18

Lots of can't recalls but memory appears good on this point

IB - I mentioned that GC beliefs needed to be respected , but that NHS staff need to act with care and compassion

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