NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #27

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions wereFri provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25
Thread 26: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5335861-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-26

And laminating pronoun badges

Too many different local structures, roles, services etc to allow for that across 14 territorial boards and 8 special boards

So from TT she understood that GC views must be respected, but whst does she think that means because the way they all behaved shows no respect for Sandie's views whatsoever

yes but surely you only need one framework document with provision for local practices?

Transness isn't a local practice that is more applicable in fife than Oban, surely?

ETA: surely the whole point of Once For Scotland [someone on Twitter asked if their "n" key wasn't working...] is to have blanket policies that could be slightly tweaked where necessary? that is what the HR should cover (EDI would be part of HR in that case)

It would greatly reduce costs.

From TT

IB - that's not the working group
JR - what's that about
IB - it's about the patient policy
JR - what are you saying in email
IB - that it was about patient policy, I had input from Janet, and would circulate for wider comment, mentioned that we were waiting for OfS policy
JR - any further involvement in these matters
IB - only working group
JR - who were in working group
IB - <a number of names, not all complete>
JR - what did the group do
IB - it was about scoping, could we have a single policy on trans issues, I'd been looking at the patient

Her memory is so good when recalling how she specifically mentioned how important it was to respect GC opinions, bloody stroke of luck there!

Apart from the obvious unfairness to Sandie how much money has been wasted on this. How many people have had to wait for treatment because of the hundreds of thousands wasted.

Misguided “kindness” has potentially impacted people’s physical health.

It would be good to see an example of something that IB has published in support of GC views

Lunch
1.20 back

As in all these tribunals, selective memory is a feature not a bug.

Maybe she means respected as in I respect that people can have GC beliefs as long as they don't actually tell anyone about them

I will be looking out for this to be tested on cross examination.

From TT

IB - it was about scoping, could we have a single policy on trans issues, I'd been looking at the patient policy.

JR - what happened next
IB - they were going to search for other policies, I believe that's when these other policies were obtained
JR - and what happened
IB - we decided that it was a rapidly evolving area and climate, and the OfS policy was coming soon
JR - was that policy ever soft launched
IB - it was used informally, we did not adopt because we were navigating the balance of rights in our circumstances
JR - was it confirmed
IB - it was confirmed only for purposes of soft launch.
JR - subsequently confirmed?

That was a mess and she was being questioned by her side.

Naomi is going to be fun after lunch.

Once for Scotland Policy Info

Haven’t read it yet. Looks really interesting 🤨

I don't believe for a second that she actually said that tbh. More likely 'ooh, poor Dr Upton! Don't worry, we'll punish that nasty lady for you!'

Yes, wouldn't that be fascinating!😄

It wasnt his disciplinary. The reflection practice is for SP. See last sentence:
"As this matter relates to an individual member of staff..."

From TT

IB - it was subsequently not confirmed because of this tribunal, it has been withdrawn for now.
JR - no more questions
J - NC, do you want to take lunch now or start your x-exam?
NC - stenographers have been going for more than an hour, they are do a break, lets take lunch.

from TT
JR - was that policy ever soft launched
IB - it was used informally, we did not adopt because we were navigating the balance of rights in our circumstances

'navigating the balance of rights in our circumstances'
' I mentioned that GC beliefs needed to be respected'

have we underestimated IB?

I know it's very frustrating for those who didn't get access and wanted it, but credit to the courts service for having come up with a solution to the key problems last time. The interface is easier to understand (clear 'Observer' option), they're only letting observers in with video and sound off and if their screen names match what they registered with. I've dropped off the call several times due to internet and also accidentally due to fat thumbs (I'm on my phone) and I've been readmitted very promptly. So appreciation to the clerks - this must be quite a stressful day for them too.

I don't reckon IB had even heard of GC views before this tribunal kicked off

Continuation thread:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5374630-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-28

No need to add posts thanking me, just add a reaction to the OP on thread #28 if you're minded to do that.

Yes. I find it surprising.

yay glad it’s lunch now, I can catch up on the bus and then follow here and TT when I get home