NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #27

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions wereFri provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25
Thread 26: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5335861-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-26

I’m fascinated by the case, but keeping up while working full time took up all my spare time last time.

I hope that Sandie has strong support. I found it tough enough to read, so goodness knows what it must feel like to be in her shoes.

Regardless of how they paint her, the Supreme Court means that they illegally put her in an unreasonable situation, so surely she must feel more secure than she did before.

Sandie doesn’t have to accept, though I think if they try to settle and she refuses, then any costs thereafter are perhaps on her. We don’t know who’s backing her, but hopefully they have deep pockets and want to take this case all the way.

I wish I could watch. Last time I missed all of the first week but joined the second - and was aghast that the evening reporting bore so little resemblance to what I’d seen and heard. Tribunal Tweets are amazing but again, it’s not the same as seeing with your own eyes how various parties behaved in the tribunal.

I loved the way Naomi Cunningham left his statements hanging in the air while the judge caught up with his longhand notes. A cracking example was the big girl pants comment.

Starting to contemplate which snacks I’ll need this week keep me going though the ET. I’m quite partial to a Borders biscuit.

This is how I view her too. I think she has some amazing women behind her that have given her lots of confidence. And now she gives zero fucks.

I'm hoping to mostly keep up with the case through here and tribunal tweets, although it won't be easy to have time. I very much hope somebody with influence and a brain at my Trust will be following it and knowing it could just as easily be them facing the tribunal because of the "inclusive policy" they seem so pleased with.

From X:

Remember that Dr Upton imposes his lie not only on staff but on patients. He admits he does not inform them, stops only if they object, knowing that many patients cannot. Others can, but would not dare. Touching patients without full consent is a criminal act, an abuse of power.

Dr Upton stated that even after a female patient makes a specific request for female-only care, he will still attempt to treat her as if he were female, without discussion. She has to object for him to stop. He knowingly treats against consent: an admission of serious misconduct.

https://x.com/dearrebelada/status/1944309365915476467?s=46

As Michael Foran pointed out, they have gotten themselves into a quandary by running her disciplinary process parallel to the case. If they exonerate her, then they will be directly contradicting what their barrister is arguing in court.

And if they don't exonerate her, then Sandie can argue that it wasn't a fair process because they have already argued in court that she is guilty and then she can sue them again. Assuming it is JKR that is backing her, money won't be an issue in this respect.

It will be interesting to see what is made of this in court next week, as it sounds as if NHS Fife have really cocked up here, and there is the whole debacle of the investigation being started and then abandoned before being picked up again. There is also the fact that they didn't conduct an equality impact assessment when they effectively designated the female changing rooms mixed sex, after taking advice from an inexperienced EDI lead rather than from anyone with legal knowledge. And then you have Dr. Kate Searle taking sides and immediately backing Upton and casting Sandie as the harasser before the investigation had even begun.

They have treated her so shoddily and have really messed up in terms of following proper procedures.

It will be fascinating to watch the two horses that Jane Russell is trying to ride, if they diverge further. NHS Fife apparently is still paying Upton's costs. But either he lied about Sandie's behaviour putting patients at risk, or he abdicated all professional responsibility by not reporting something so dangerous until months later when it became useful as part of his case.

I wonder when his disciplinary is? [rhetorical question]

Edited to add: and a disciplinary for admitting he will override the consent of female patients for same-sex care? (although his insistence that he is female muddies that).

I think this case is going to be very damaging for the NHS (and the SNP) because the public is going to be appalled at how they've handled this and how much public money they have wasted. All because they couldn't have taken the perfectly reasonable approach of providing the male doctor with access to a gender neutral changing area, rather than the female one.
It is going to expose how much people in the NHS have lost their minds over gender ideology.

Thanks @Conxis

If I were Sandie, I'd probably be looking forward to this. She must feel enormously confident about success. Her own testimony and cross-examination is out of the way, everyone has seen NHS Fife make complete fools of themselves, the Supreme Court ruling means that NHS FIfe don't have a legal leg to stand on and the weight of public opinion is overwhelmingly behind her. Plus, it seems she doesn't have any financial worries (at least as far as legal case is concerned) so the tribunal can go on as long as necessary. In her position, I'd be positively gleeful.

Absolutely this. I have a friend who works for the NHS in a lower-rung position. When the case started, she told me she was sure Sandie Peggie would lose. She didn’t want that to happen, but had been so immersed in NHS trans-lore that she couldn’t really imagine any way the case could be won. The depth of infiltration of gender ideology over reality within a part of the NHS which is wholly unrelated to “gender health care” was startling.

And there’s Scottish parliament elections in less than a year!

Yes, it will be interesting to see what the SNP's approach to gender ideology is in the run up the elections.

Which maybe a reason why Michelle Thomson had broken ranks saying that the NHS Fife board should reason. There is no holding back of the Scottish media who are quite rightly questioning the process and the costs to the taxpayer.

The NHS wants more funding and is currently flushing how much down the drain in trans ideology? The general public just want waiting lists shortened and to be able to see their GP in a timely manner or at least to be able to book an appointment.

I can also predict with the utmost confidence that NHS Fife will start with a load of excuses about why they have not done this or that, that there wasn’t enough time to submit x/y , SP is still being mean in not rolling over and accepting all the allegations against her and that the dog ate their homework.

Can we postpone the hearing, your honour, the car park attendant for leadership car park has gone on holiday for a month and the main board members are trapped? Or some equally shit excuse.

I agree. I’m sure she’s nervous, but your point about her testimony being out of the way for part two is important. I think we can anticipate much wider coverage and trying to label her as bigoted would not be a good tactic, methinks.

Thank you @nauticant for the new thread. As always, very grateful for your efforts in keeping the threads updated with the relevant info

I think the people at NHS Fife behind the scenes are too imbedded with this guff that they are arrogantly ignoring the reality around them. In their eyes Upton is a vulnerable , marginalised wee soul and Sandie is a nasty bigot. They will go down with the ship believing to the very end.

The only people I feel sorry for, other than Sandie and her family, are the staff members who through fear of reprisals have just tried to keep their jobs so gave kept their heads down. They haven’t done the morally correct thing but that is not always easy especially in the face of the bullying tactics of the TRAs.

Very many thanks @nauticant. You've done a great job keeping all of this together for the rest of us.

Thanks Nauticant. Havent applied to watch as I wouldnt be available for enough of the hearing. Looking forward to finding out if Upton's phone was ever examined (any bets on whether it was?) and the cross examination of NHS FIFE's witnesses.

Wondering where Upton was working now and see that his supervisor has changed from Dr Searle to Dr Christopher McKenna. He's FIFE's medical director. I dont think it's unusual for the supervisor to change. All resident doctors are subject to revalidation, should anyone else be looking at the GMC record.

I am very much looking forward to reading the commentary on here next week. thanks for the threads nauticant

Thank you nauticant, I didn't apply for the link to watch this time as I was not going to be able to make good use of it but will look forward to keeping a close eye on this thread and TT when I get the time.

Dr Christopher McKenna will be Upton's Responsible Officer not his clinical supervisor. Dr McKenna will be the Responsible Officer for every doctor who has NHS Fife as their designated body.

Just out of interest, why do you always capitalise Fife, @anyolddinosaur? I always know it’s you posting before I read the user name ☺️

@Tallisker - lots of posters do, why not?

@PrettyDamnCosmic Pretty sure it said Kate Searle at the time of the previous hearing.