Allison Bailey v Stonewall - Employment Tribunal hearing Thread 11

[ickky]

The Tribunal started on 25th April at 10am. If you would like to view online you need to send a request for access as early as possible.

Send an email to

[email protected]

The subject heading of the email request should read

“MEDIA OR PUBLIC ACCESS REQUEST – Case number 2202172/2020 - Ms A Bailey – 25th April 2022.

Then ask for the pin for the online access.

You will be contacted with instructions on how to observe the hearing.

When joining the live tribunal please choose a non inflammatory/offensive name, everyone can see it in the chat - This is a court room, please behave accordingly.

The court chat function is there for official court purposes, not for observers, please don't use it unless you have a technical issue.

On the first page underneath where you put your screen name, select the video and mic that are not crossed out (top option), this is the courts vid and mic.
On the next page select NONE on the drop down windows for vid and mic, these are your own video and mic.
You must be muted so as to not disturb the hearing.

There is also live tweeting from

twitter.com/tribunaltweets

Abbreviations:
AB: Allison Bailey, claimant
BC: Ben Cooper QC, barrister for AB
SW = Stonewall Equality Limited (respondent 1)
IO = Ijeoma Omambala QC, senior counsel - barrister for SW
RW = Robin White junior counsel to SW - assisting IO
GC = Garden Court Chambers Limited (respondent 2) (GCC would be a better abbreviation)
AH = Andrew Hochhauser QC, senior counsel - barrister for GC
JR = Jane Russell junior counsel to GC - assisting AH
RM= Rajiv Menon QC & SH = Stephanie Harrison QC (jointly respondent 3 along with all members of GC except AB)
EJ = Employment Judge Goodman hearing the case
Panel = any one of the three panel members (EJ and two lay members)

Thread 1 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4529887-Allison-Bailey-v-Stonewall-Employment-Tribunal-hearing?

Thread 2 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4542466-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-2

Thread 3 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4545725-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-3

Thread 4 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4546945-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-4

Thread 5 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4548160-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-5

Thread 6 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4550451-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-6

Thread 7 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4551757-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-7

Thread 8 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4552521-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-8

Thread 9 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4553181-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-9

Thread 10 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4553754-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-10

Allison Bailey - claimant (4-9, 11-13 May)

Witnesses for the claimant:

Dr Nicola Williams - Fair Play for Women (29 April)
Dr Judith Green - A Woman's Place (29 April)
Kate Barker - LGB Alliance (3 May)
Lisa-Marie Taylor - FiLiA (4 May)

Witnesses for the respondents:

Stephen Lue - barrister for GCC (3-4 May)
Zainab Al-Farabi - ex Stonewall (10 May)
Kirrin Medcalf - head of trans inclusion Stonewall (10 May)
Leslie Thomas - barrister at GCC (13 May)
Sanjay Sood Smith - Stonewall (16 May)
Shaan Knan - LGBT consortium - on STAG (16 May)
Rajiv Menon - joint head of chambers (16-17 May)
Maya Sikand - barrister at GCC (17-18 May)
Mia Hakl-Law - HR senior for GCC (18 May)
Judy Khan - barrister at GCC (19-20 May)
Charlie Tennent - clerk at GCC (20 May)
Luke Harvey - clerk at GCC (20 May)
Louise Hooper - Barrister at GCC (20 May)
Marc Willers - Barrister at GCC (23 May)
Stephen Clark - Barrister at GCC (23 May)
Liz Davies - Barrister at GCC (23 May)

To come?

Tom Wainwright - Barrister at GCC (24 May)
David Renton - barrister at GCC (20 May, to continue on 25th May)
Stephanie Harrison - joint head of chambers
Michelle Brewer - barrister at GCC at time, now left and a judge.
David de Menezes - GCC, Head of Marketing

Can she hear herself!!!!?!

BC - being clear about coercion.

Fuck me...

'The CC is about trans people entering into relationships with lesbians born female'.

Cathryn- what's the saying - oh sweet summer child?

Saying it would be "odd" if the workshop were to include coercion.

Welcome to our world, Cathryn. Why do you think we're fuming?

"it would be odd for this workshop to be advocating coercion as coercion isn't a proper basis for a personal relationship"

You're assuming that the TRA element isn't odd. That no-one would ever try to coerce someone to sleep with them. Bit naive?

BC now bringing in coercive control to prove that CM knows exactly what coercion is

I will try and grab the question from TT

Ben now describing coercion as emotional psychological too.
CMCg not disagreeing.

'lesbians born female'. JFC.

She's trying to say it's about relationship barriers not sexual barriers.

"Lesbians born female"

Get in the bin!

Thing is though, if you are actually transphobic, there is nothing they could do to make you freely have sex with them, so the only option IS coercion. If you are not transphobic, it comes done to attraction, which entirely up to each individual.

'Sexual relationships' is not the same as 'sexual barriers'.

She’s taking what she believes should be acceptable and reading that into what they were doing, rather than listening to what they were actually doing. And yes, she is giving her opinion. Absent any further information, just read the words: OVERCOMING SEXUAL BARRIERS.

She's full to the brim with the Kool-aid.

She's not sure what 'social coercion' is.

Not a trans ‘individual’ - a male who identifies as a female but isn’t.

It was quite specifically about that, right? Nothing about lesbians not accepting trans-identifying females? (Which I don't believe is much of a thing - as opposed to a trans-identifying female feeling invalidated by acceptance, and trying to persuade the lesbian to call herself something else).

Of course it's entirely natural that Morgan Page would be mainly concerned with the male point of view.

CM wriggling on the hook here

"Shaming can be coercision" CMcG agrees but says she saw nothing to indicate that.

Ben says "Well, lets explore that".

How anyone can argue with a straight face that a workshop called "breaking the cotton ceiling" is ANYTHING other than coercive and also just utterly vile blows my mind.

CM: regarding lesbians born female

If you aren't born female, you cannot be a lesbian, surely?

I think it is becoming clearer which side CM leans towards

Is there a difference?

Kool Aid + thinking men like this are fundamentally good = bad basis for decisions

Underwear!

Oh Ben has brought it back to knickers now

But thank Christ there's one human rights QC that understands that coercion isn't just physical force! Hurrah!