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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Allison Bailey v Stonewall - Employment Tribunal hearing Thread 10

1004 replies

ickky · 21/05/2022 10:36

The Tribunal started on 25th April at 10am. If you would like to view online you need to send a request for access as early as possible.

Send an email to

[email protected]

The subject heading of the email request should read

“MEDIA OR PUBLIC ACCESS REQUEST – Case number 2202172/2020 - Ms A Bailey – 25th April 2022.

Then ask for the pin for the online access.

You will be contacted with instructions on how to observe the hearing.

When joining the live tribunal please choose a non inflammatory/offensive name, everyone can see it in the chat - This is a court room, please behave accordingly.

The court chat function is there for official court purposes, not for observers, please don't use it unless you have a technical issue.

On the first page underneath where you put your screen name, select the video and mic that are not crossed out (top option), this is the courts vid and mic.
On the next page select NONE on the drop down windows for vid and mic, these are your own video and mic.

You must be muted so as to not disturb the hearing.

There is also live tweeting from

twitter.com/tribunaltweets

Abbreviations:

AB: Allison Bailey, claimant
BC: Ben Cooper QC, barrister for AB
SW = Stonewall Equality Limited (respondent 1)
IO = Ijeoma Omambala QC, senior counsel - barrister for SW
RW = Robin White junior counsel to SW - assisting IO
GC = Garden Court Chambers Limited (respondent 2) (GCC would be a better abbreviation)
AH = Andrew Hochhauser QC, senior counsel - barrister for GC
JR = Jane Russell junior counsel to GC - assisting AH
RM= Rajiv Menon QC & SH = Stephanie Harrison QC (jointly respondent 3 along with all members of GC except AB)
EJ = Employment Judge Goodman hearing the case
Panel = any one of the three panel members (EJ and two lay members)

Thread 1 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4529887-Allison-Bailey-v-Stonewall-Employment-Tribunal-hearing?

Thread 2 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4542466-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-2

Thread 3 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4545725-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-3

Thread 4 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4546945-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-4

Thread 5 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4548160-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-5

Thread 6 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4550451-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-6

Thread 7 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4551757-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-7

Thread 8 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4552521-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-8

Thread 9 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4553181-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-9

Allison Bailey - claimant (4-9, 11-13 May)

Witnesses for the claimant:

Dr Nicola Williams - Fair Play for Women (29 April)
Dr Judith Green - A Woman's Place (29 April)
Kate Barker - LGB Alliance (3 May)
Lisa-Marie Taylor - FiLiA (4 May)

Witnesses for the respondents:

Stephen Lue - barrister for GCC (3-4 May)
Zainab Al-Farabi - ex Stonewall (10 May)
Kirrin Medcalf - head of trans inclusion Stonewall (10 May)
Leslie Thomas - barrister at GCC (13 May)
Sanjay Sood Smith - Stonewall (16 May)
Shaan Knan - LGBT consortium - on STAG (16 May)
Rajiv Menon - joint head of chambers (16-17 May)
Maya Sikand - barrister at GCC (17-18 May)
Mia Hakl-Law - HR senior for GCC (18 May)
Judy Khan - barrister at GCC (19-20 May)
Charlie Tennent - clerk at GCC (20 May)
Luke Harvey - clerk at GCC (20 May)
Louise Hooper - Barrister at GCC (20 May)

To come?
David Renton - barrister at GCC (20 May, to continue on 25th May)
Stephanie Harrison - joint head of chambers
Michelle Brewer - barrister at GCC at time, now left and a judge.
David de Menezes - GCC, Head of Marketing

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
Penguintears · 23/05/2022 12:59

He's now saying that coercion must involve either physical force or threat of physical force. I mean seriously. Anyone legally trained saying this cannot be speaking truthfully.

tabbycatstripy · 23/05/2022 12:59

Coercion means pressure by force or threat of force?

No, it doesn’t. It is not okay to use blackmail tactics - that’s coercive. It is not okay to use financial control - that’s coercive. It is not okay to use social pressure - that’s coercive.

He doesn’t agree? Interesting.

MythicalReasonableTwitterUser · 23/05/2022 13:00

reasonable twitter users know what the fuck coercion is- and yes, the idea of the cotton ceiling and ostracizing and threatening women and lesbians is fucking coercive

TopKnotch · 23/05/2022 13:00

MW: So coercion is only "with force or threat of force"

BC: Not always physical force?

MW: Yes, that is what most reasonable readers would understand that to mean

tabbycatstripy · 23/05/2022 13:00

If it ‘could amount to coercion’ then it might be coercion.

Duh.

IdisagreeMrHochhauser · 23/05/2022 13:00

Shame the cotton ceiling is butting up against lunch.

TopKnotch · 23/05/2022 13:01

My head is exploding here.

These people just can't seem to realise they're arguing against themselves

tempchange9 · 23/05/2022 13:01

The Government definition also outlines the following: Coercive behaviour is an act or a pattern of acts of assault, threats, humiliation and intimidation or other abuse that is used to harm, punish, or frighten their victim.

www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/controlling-or-coercive-behaviour-intimate-or-family-relationship#:~:text=The%20Government%20definition%20also%20outlines,punish%2C%20or%20frighten%20their%20victim

Helleofabore · 23/05/2022 13:01

Now let's see if this man realises just how much he outsourced his own critical thinking to Maya Sikand.

Clymene · 23/05/2022 13:01

Ooh BC has just called transwomen men.

It's taking MW a very long time to answer.

tabbycatstripy · 23/05/2022 13:01

No, it’s good timing. BC will do a ‘might be a good moment to break for lunch’ in a sec.

MythicalReasonableTwitterUser · 23/05/2022 13:01

Sorry as I am to correct Ben, but I think the cotton ceiling can more properly described as calling lesbians transphobic for not sucking dick

IdisagreeMrHochhauser · 23/05/2022 13:02

He said born as men. Miss, miss: Transphobia!

malloo · 23/05/2022 13:02

he's really struggling to defend his position here, lots of long pauses

NancyDrawed · 23/05/2022 13:02

It looks to me as if MW is finally considering AB's point of view.

ifIwerenotanandroid · 23/05/2022 13:03

Soooo close to a repeat of 'lesbian's knickers' there. Lots of penises, though.

nauticant · 23/05/2022 13:03

I still boggle every time I heard barristers, and QCs, from what's supposed to be a leading human rights chambers try to narrow down the scope of what sexual coercion is in order to score a point in legal proceedings.

tabbycatstripy · 23/05/2022 13:04

‘I still boggle every time I heard barristers, and QCs, from what's supposed to be a leading human rights chambers try to narrow down the scope of what sexual coercion is in order to score a point in legal proceedings.’

It’s not a good look.

TopKnotch · 23/05/2022 13:04

MW is completely and absolutely lost.

He can't seem to remember what it is he's meant to be arguing for.

Except that it wasn't him, it didn't happen, if it did it wasn't bad, she's mean and he is a bit busy and didn't engage

chilling19 · 23/05/2022 13:04

Kickers! Bingo

TheBiologyStupid · 23/05/2022 13:04

Chrysanthemum5 · 23/05/2022 12:59

Bringing back the idea that coercion involves threat of force - if that's what their case relies on they are I trouble

For a bunch of lawyers they seem to know less about coercive and controlling behaviour than the average listener to The Archers in the Rob and Helen days.

Shortpoet · 23/05/2022 13:04

Knickers!

House

Ameanstreakamilewide · 23/05/2022 13:05

'Women's knickers'.

I'm glad he said it again...

IdisagreeMrHochhauser · 23/05/2022 13:05

IO interjecting re accuracy of terminology and wanting a lunch break.

Clymene · 23/05/2022 13:05

IO wanting to break for lunch

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