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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Allison Bailey v Stonewall - Employment Tribunal hearing Thread 9

1002 replies

ickky · 20/05/2022 12:53

The Tribunal started on 25th April at 10am. If you would like to view online you need to send a request for access as early as possible.

Send an email to

[email protected]

The subject heading of the email request should read

“MEDIA OR PUBLIC ACCESS REQUEST – Case number 2202172/2020 - Ms A Bailey – 25th April 2022.

Then ask for the pin for the online access.

You will be contacted with instructions on how to observe the hearing.

When joining the live tribunal please choose a non inflammatory/offensive name, everyone can see it in the chat - This is a court room, please behave accordingly.

The court chat function is there for official court purposes, not for observers, please don't use it unless you have a technical issue.

On the first page underneath where you put your screen name, select the video and mic that are not crossed out (top option), this is the courts vid and mic.
On the next page select NONE on the drop down windows for vid and mic, these are your own video and mic.

You must be muted so as to not disturb the hearing.

There is also live tweeting from

twitter.com/tribunaltweets

Abbreviations:
AB: Allison Bailey, claimant
BC: Ben Cooper QC, barrister for AB
SW = Stonewall Equality Limited (respondent 1)
IO = Ijeoma Omambala QC, senior counsel - barrister for SW
RW = Robin White junior counsel to SW - assisting IO
GC = Garden Court Chambers Limited (respondent 2) (GCC would be a better abbreviation)
AH = Andrew Hochhauser QC, senior counsel - barrister for GC
JR = Jane Russell junior counsel to GC - assisting AH
RM= Rajiv Menon QC & SH = Stephanie Harrison QC (jointly respondent 3 along with all members of GC except AB)
EJ = Employment Judge Goodman hearing the case
Panel = any one of the three panel members (EJ and two lay members)

Thread 1 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4529887-Allison-Bailey-v-Stonewall-Employment-Tribunal-hearing?

Thread 2 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4542466-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-2

Thread 3 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4545725-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-3

Thread 4 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4546945-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-4

Thread 5 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4548160-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-5

Thread 6 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4550451-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-6

Thread 7 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4551757-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-7

Thread 8 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4552521-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-8

Allison Bailey - claimant

Witnesses for the claimant:

Nic Williams - Fair Play for Women
A Woman's Place
FiLiA
Kate Harris - LGB Alliance

Witnesses for the respondents:

Stephen Lue - barrister for GCC
Kirrin Medcalfe - head of trans inclusion Stonewall
Sanjay Sood Smith - Stonewall
Shaan Knan - LGBT consortium - on STAG
Leslie Thomas - barrister at GCC
Rajiv Menon - joint head of chambers
Maya Sikand - barrister at GCC and in charge of writing report on AB/complaints
Mia Hakl-Law - HR senior for GCC
Judy Khan - barrister at GCC

Current Witness - Charlie Tennant - Clerk at GCC

To come

Luke Harvey - Clerk at GCC
Louise Hooper - Clerk at GCC
Stephanie Harrison - joint head of chambers
Michelle Brewer - barrister at GCC at time, now left and a judge

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
katmarie · 20/05/2022 16:48

Rage inducing is right. I can absolutely see why AB would have felt that her chambers was a hostile place if she was sharing a room with him.

OvaHere · 20/05/2022 16:48

He was throughly unpleasant. Poor Allison.

Quite bizarre he has the biography he does because every word out of his mouth seems to contradict what he supposedly stands for.

Resisterwitch · 20/05/2022 16:48

Dashed in from work. Quickest shower ever. Support pizza in oven. Thank you all for posts.

MagnoliaTaint · 20/05/2022 16:48

nauticant · 20/05/2022 16:47

DR can't do Monday. Earliest he can do is Wednesday.

Which means he's got to keep quiet about this till then. EJ explained very carefully to DR what this means.

I wonder if she is picking up on the apparent misogyny?

MissPollysFitDolly · 20/05/2022 16:49

UnashamedFeministIntellectual · Today 16:47

I'm offering support twixes to everyone watching as this sounds like a rage inducing witness/man.

Yes please, he was truly awful!

Mollyollydolly · 20/05/2022 16:49

Well, speechless really. Poor Allison. I'll need a drink in hand on Wednesday. What a dreadful man. Dreadful

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/05/2022 16:49

The correction the Independent was obliged to print by FPFW.

This is the article.

www.independent.co.uk/voices/41-per-cent-trans-transgender-trans-women-prisoners-sex-offenders-false-study-statistic-this-is-why-a8072431.html?amp

IloveHolby · 20/05/2022 16:49

PrelateChuckles · 20/05/2022 16:46

I'm really glad the judge is female, if it's actually as true as this guy is making it seem that male people literally cannot comprehend any fear of male people in female toilets.

Absolutely Prelate - me too for this and many other issues which are being discussed that relate to women's rights.

usabilityfiend · 20/05/2022 16:49

I think it's just because it's so long - 4 days - that he has to not talk to anyone.

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 20/05/2022 16:49

I rather liked EJ's intervention about how tired BC must be and proposing to break now and continue next week.

She does seem determined to be as fair-minded as she can be to all parties.

IDidntKnowItWasAParty · 20/05/2022 16:50

This odious man DR is exactly the sort of man that makes women want, need and deserve spaces away from men!!!!! A man with no regard for women and girls, no regard for our feelings/thoughts/needs, no regard for the issues of male violence/sexual assault that we face, no regard for the effects of past trauma, just total uttter disregard and contempt for women and girls. Odious odious man.

ifIwerenotanandroid · 20/05/2022 16:50

Oh good. If it's not a zero sum game, DR will be able to answer the question: how can a single-sex space co-exist with allowing members of the other sex into that space?

Hmm. Not impressed that DR advocates for gender-neutral toilets (in schools, was it?) but says he's unaware of the stats showing increased risk of assault.

LipbalmOrKnickers · 20/05/2022 16:50

IdisagreeMrHochhauser

'What a twonk.'

Just refreshed and scrolled back down and this popped out at me. Abso-fucking-lutely. 😂

Helleofabore · 20/05/2022 16:50

Does anyone else seem to think these witnesses are really hypocritical. Renton is deeply entrenched and 'reported' on Allison and yet denies they have created a hostile environment.

It is like hostile has been redefined as has 'abuse' and 'coercion'. So this witness believes that their actions are not hostile towards Allison but that Allison is hostile to trans people. Have I got that right?

It really is like dealing with school yard bullies. No miss, I did not mean to abuse that person, but I did mean to do x which caused them harm. But that is not abuse in 'my' understanding.

nauticant · 20/05/2022 16:50

There was another witness where EJ was as specific in reminding about the rules MagnoliaTaint. I can't remember who, but think it was one of the true believers, maybe one of the Stonewall witnesses.

dworky · 20/05/2022 16:51

"Utter arse of a man"

User237845 · 20/05/2022 16:51

NancyDrawed · 20/05/2022 16:47

BC: We can finish Mr Renton on Wednesday

Lol.

ickky · 20/05/2022 16:51

I am so angry, I better not type what I really think of him.

So resumes Monday at 9.30am.

Does anyone know who's up next?

OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/05/2022 16:52

I think self appointed moral guardians recording your private calls can possibly be considered to constitute a hostile environment.

theemperorhasnoclothes · 20/05/2022 16:52

I didn't know I could be more angry than when witnessing JoHo.

What's the difference between DR and the taliban? He doesn't think women should have rights. He doesn't think women's opinions count, even if it's because of extreme trauma. He hand waves away Allison's concerns for women's rights by saying he "doesn't agree'. Who made him the arbiter of what women can have?

Did anyone else think his comment about being 'sorry' to read AB had been a victim of sexual assault was totally unconvincing? Like harm to women matters very little. Then goes on to say women who've been victims of sexual assault shouldn't have single sex spaces and it doesn't matter what they think.

Jeez. It's terrifying.

Helleofabore · 20/05/2022 16:52

If Renton does that to people he is 'fond' of, what the fuck does he do to those he dislikes mildly?

OvaHere · 20/05/2022 16:52

IloveHolby · 20/05/2022 16:49

Absolutely Prelate - me too for this and many other issues which are being discussed that relate to women's rights.

I used to think that but I'm more on the fence now. Michelle Brewer is a judge and I expect she would agree with DR.

TheClitterati · 20/05/2022 16:52

DR is arguing that trans rights to affirmation by accessing opposite sex spaces must be prioritised over women/girls right to safe same sex spaces/facilities. To not agree this and to argue for single sex spaces is transphobic.

He said that yes he did - full on Talcum X Beardy Bro on our screens. He looks so proud too. WOW!

ClocheEncounter · 20/05/2022 16:52

I think it was SK, nauticant, EJ went over the rules just before they stopped for a lunch break IIRC.

MagnoliaTaint · 20/05/2022 16:52

This the bloke?

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