Allison Bailey v Stonewall - Employment Tribunal hearing Thread 7

[ickky]

The Tribunal started on 25th April at 10am. If you would like to view online you need to send a request for access as early as possible.

Send an email to

[email protected]

The subject heading of the email request should read

“MEDIA OR PUBLIC ACCESS REQUEST – Case number 2202172/2020 - Ms A Bailey – 25th April 2022.

Then ask for the pin for the online access.

You will be contacted with instructions on how to observe the hearing.

When joining the live tribunal please choose a non inflammatory/offensive name, everyone can see it in the chat - This is a court room, please behave accordingly.

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On the next page select NONE on the drop down windows for vid and mic, these are your own video and mic.

You must be muted so as to not disturb the hearing.

There is also live tweeting from

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Abbreviations:

AB: Allison Bailey, claimant
BC: Ben Cooper QC, barrister for AB
SW = Stonewall Equality Limited (respondent 1)
IO = Ijeoma Omambala QC, senior counsel - barrister for SW
RW = Robin White junior counsel to SW - assisting IO
GC = Garden Court Chambers Limited (respondent 2) (GCC would be a better abbreviation)
AH = Andrew Hochhauser QC, senior counsel - barrister for GC
JR = Jane Russell junior counsel to GC - assisting AH
RM= Rajiv Menon QC & SH = Stephanie Harrison QC (jointly respondent 3 along with all members of GC except AB)
EJ = Employment Judge Goodman hearing the case
Panel = any one of the three panel members (EJ and two lay members)

Thread 1 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4529887-Allison-Bailey-v-Stonewall-Employment-Tribunal-hearing?

Thread 2 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4542466-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-2

Thread 3 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4545725-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-3

Thread 4 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4546945-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-4

Thread 5 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4548160-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-5

Thread 6 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4550451-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-6

Break until 11.18 AH mic is echoing yet again.

HUGE sigh there! From MS?

BC asks for a longer break.

EJ says ok. But to me EJ seems really annoyed too.

BC says his cross examination will take the rest of the morning.

Various of us in the chat pointing out that AH is causing the terrible echo again.

This new platform is abysmal. Bookmarks don't actually bookmark so refreshing takes me to a random point in the thread.

I think she meant the "terf IS a slur" website.
For reference, there is the overcoming the cotton ceiling workshop advert under discussion:

terfisnotaslur.com/

(terf is NOT a slur)

Just in case anyone is interested.

Name changed... Oh how I wish we could be recording this, TRA nonsense when they have to attempt a reasonable discussion is amazing. She went on an on about how the cotton ceiling doesn't mean what we know it means and when BC asked her what it means to her... just wow...

Oh did she actually mean that ("terf is NOT a slur" website)??

I think MS meant she went to "terfisnotaslur" to educate herself.

Did she actively go looking for material that proved it wasn't a coercive term, instead of looking across a breadth of material? Is she looking with a view to not upsetting Stonewall?

.

Thanks, ickky!

The notoriously neutral and well balanced website: 'Terf Is Not a Slur'.

Thank you @ickky and all.

I'm only following on here - can someone explain the reference to 'Mr X' please?

I am having this conversation with my daughter's school at the moment. I want them to come out and say that they support lesbians who say they are same sex attracted. That it is not transphobic not to want to date trans women. They seem to "not get the issue". Of course they get it (just like MS gets it), but if they admit they get it, they undermine everything else they spout about gender. This is a crucial point and I am glad BC is not dropping it.

The whole thing a house of cards, 2fallsfromSSA - which know full well.

You can't only take a bite of the apple, you have to eat the whole thing.

I’m confused. What does MS claim she thinks the cotton ceiling refers to?

@StrongOutspokenOftenIrritating

I’m confused. What does MS claim she thinks the cotton ceiling refers to?

I think we are all confused about what she thinks.

The barristers (with the exception of AB) all seem to be dreadful in the witness box.

So bad, in fact, that I am actually wondering if this might be some sort of strategy. If it is, I haven’t figured it out yet. But surely with their experience they would know what does and doesn’t look good to a judge? Or do they really think that AB doesn’t have a leg to stand on and this will all be resolved in their favour?

Well, she Googled it, Strong and added footnotes to her report. 🤨

I don't know what else she needs to know.

I'm only listening while working, but I don't think she's given an answer other than to say she doesn't agree with what AB told her it was.

IdisagreeMrHochhauser "She's showing herself up that she doesn't really get all this at all.
But then unless you are personally affected then I don't suppose people do.
Break until 11.18"

Sorry, maybe I am overestimating the intelligence of the general public, but I would have thought that 95% to 99% of the population are quite capable of understanding what gay and straight mean, and that it is incredibly disgusting to attempt to "persuade" people to have sex outside of their sexual orientation. Surely this is really not that difficult to get?

I don't understand how the title of the workshop is open to misinterpretation. It clearly says 'overcoming the cotton ceiling' (clear reference to glass ceiling), the blurb says that it's open to 'trans women and other MAAB' and that participants will work together to identify sexual barriers within the broader 'queer women's community' (so 'FAAB' then) and 'strategize ways to overcome them'.

MS clinging to the suggestion it could mean anything else at all comes over as indignant self-preservation. It's infuriating.

This is a crucial point and I am glad BC is not dropping it.

This this this. I suspect that's why AH jumped in to ask for a break at that moment, but I really hope Ben keeps on this point, while letting MS show her true TRA colors. And I hope the judge is checking out terfisaslur and seeing how many of those tweets are from well established accounts. sunshine ☀️