Allison Bailey v Stonewall - Employment Tribunal hearing Thread 7

[ickky]

The Tribunal started on 25th April at 10am. If you would like to view online you need to send a request for access as early as possible.

Send an email to

[email protected]

The subject heading of the email request should read

“MEDIA OR PUBLIC ACCESS REQUEST – Case number 2202172/2020 - Ms A Bailey – 25th April 2022.

Then ask for the pin for the online access.

You will be contacted with instructions on how to observe the hearing.

When joining the live tribunal please choose a non inflammatory/offensive name, everyone can see it in the chat - This is a court room, please behave accordingly.

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On the next page select NONE on the drop down windows for vid and mic, these are your own video and mic.

You must be muted so as to not disturb the hearing.

There is also live tweeting from

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Abbreviations:

AB: Allison Bailey, claimant
BC: Ben Cooper QC, barrister for AB
SW = Stonewall Equality Limited (respondent 1)
IO = Ijeoma Omambala QC, senior counsel - barrister for SW
RW = Robin White junior counsel to SW - assisting IO
GC = Garden Court Chambers Limited (respondent 2) (GCC would be a better abbreviation)
AH = Andrew Hochhauser QC, senior counsel - barrister for GC
JR = Jane Russell junior counsel to GC - assisting AH
RM= Rajiv Menon QC & SH = Stephanie Harrison QC (jointly respondent 3 along with all members of GC except AB)
EJ = Employment Judge Goodman hearing the case
Panel = any one of the three panel members (EJ and two lay members)

Thread 1 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4529887-Allison-Bailey-v-Stonewall-Employment-Tribunal-hearing?

Thread 2 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4542466-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-2

Thread 3 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4545725-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-3

Thread 4 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4546945-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-4

Thread 5 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4548160-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-5

Thread 6 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4550451-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-6

We're back!

EJ: Mr Cooper, sigh, carry on.

What does MS claim she thinks the cotton ceiling refers to?

Her explanation is based on the Planned Parenthood report on the workshop, see paragraph 52 of the report by Maya Sikand, page 3324 (according to the page number at the bottom of the page) of the non-downloadable bundle.

That is, MS wanted to take a partial self-serving interpretation of the workshop and ignore anything that contradicted that.

The notoriously neutral and well balanced website: 'Terf Is Not a Slur'.

Oh dear. What next? Katy Montgomerie's blog?

Wrt the barristers in the witness box, it is certainly eye opening to see them on the 'wrong' side of questioning.

I am not sure I totally believe MS when she says BC's questions are too long and she doesn't understand what he's asking. I imagine her mind is whirring trying to second guess where he is leading her and so asks for it to be repeated so that she has more time to formulate a neutral answer. But of course I might be way off track there and it might be that she genuinely can't follow a fellow QC's style of questioning?

MS refuses to agree that the New Statesman is a reasonable mainstream publication.

She didn't read this article did she? Or if she did she didn't understand it.

LOL.

My DH just walked in on me.

Him: "Who is this woman? [eyeroll] Is she a lawyer?"

Me: "She's a QC."

Him: "Is she a f*ing idiot? How does someone like this become qualified to get a job like that?"

BC: did you understand that cotton referred to underwear?

MS: complete waffle.

BC repeats the question and does get a "yes" out of MS.

"Trans activist and pornstar"

This case is the gift that keeps on giving.

Wish I could watch this. Being someone who is regularly cross examined by barristers I’d have loved to see how they managed when the shoe is on the other foot. Most lawyers I know haven’t given evidence themselves and I’ve heard many say that they wouldn’t want to.

Sadly I’ve been in court myself for the past week and a half 😬

Do we think that the penny has just dropped for MS?

MS inches question by question to acknowledging that it's about transwomen getting into lesbians' knickers.

Yes. I don't think she read that New Statesman article. I think she's beginning to get it.

Ben Cooper is a god! He is not letting this go at all. How many times can he mention 'knickers'!!!

Accordinv to tt she said she googled Morgan page and cotton ceiling which took her to more neutral sauces eg planned parenthood. So she thinks the host of the workshop is neutral, but the critics are biased. Its fine to understand what the hosts thought/claimed it was about, but not that they are neutral in the face of criticism.

Does anyone know what is in the fabled footnote?

I did similar Google and found this from Toronto planned parenthood Facebook 2012. I guess this is the type of opinion she might have found. But it's vague. What does that actually mean in practice for actual individuals lesbians and actual trans women who fancy them? No explanation for the phrase 'cotton ceiling is given.

Pasted from FB:

"In January of 2012, Planned Parenthood Toronto, in partnership with other local progressive organizations, ran a conference called No More Apologies as part of our programming for LGBTQ women. The conference was designed to bring queer cisgender and transgender women together to talk about the issue of queer trans women’s exclusion from broader LGBTQ women’s communities and how this exclusion relates to sexual health.

The event was a success, bringing together over 100 cis and trans queer women who were excited to be starting these conversations and who expressed the desire for more information and workshops.
Based on that feedback, when planning the full day Pleasure and Possibilities conference on LGBTQ women’s sexual health, PPT invited Morgan Page to facilitate a workshop for queer trans women on sexual health and social exclusion.
We are pleased that Morgan accepted our invitation and feel that her workshop will further address issues raised at the No More Apologies event.

The purpose of the workshop “Overcoming the Cotton Ceiling: Breaking Down Sexual Barriers for Queer Trans Women” is to draw attention to the ways in which trans women are socially constructed as undesirable, and are denied full participation in queer women’s communities.
Stigma and social exclusion can have immense impacts on the health and well-being of all marginalized people, trans women included.
PPT’s mandate is one of equity;
as such, we strongly stand behind queer trans women’s right to participate as full members of LGBTQ communities, and are committed to promoting and upholding trans women’s sexual health and well-being. Our programming for LGBTQ women serves all women who have sex with women (WSW), and since trans women are women, we provide programming that addresses the needs of the lesbian, bisexual, pansexual, and queer-identified trans women in our community.

The issue of sexual consent is absolutely paramount at our organization. We believe that all people have the right to say “no” to sex and to exercise other forms of control over their bodies.
The workshop does not and was never intended to advocate or promote overcoming any individual woman’s objections to sexual activity.
Instead, this workshop explores the ways in which ideologies of transphobia and transmisogyny impact sexual desire.

The sexual health and well-being of LGBTQ women are incredibly important to all of us, and the Pleasure and Possibilities conference is one way that PPT is taking action to provide spaces and resources to support LGBTQ women’s communities.

-Sarah Hobbs, Executive Director of Planned Parenthood Toronto"

HOW can she not see what we are all seeing??

I thought the same @Helleofabore it has much more impact than simply saying 'underwear'.

This is excrutiating and glorious at the same time. MS isn't s trans activist. She's painted herself into a corner to defend one of the nastiest parts of gender identity ideology. But she doesn't have the knowledge or the conviction to do so, but she was to plod on loathing every second of what she's having to do.

One for the headlines

The Times article had a paywall so I didn't read it.

Sherlock Holmes levels of investigation here.

MS struggling to agree that the concept of the glass ceiling refers to DISCRIMINATORY obstacles women have in their career.

In the end she agrees it could be.

BC says with that in mind can you understand that the Cotton Ceiling also heavily suggests discrimination.

MS says she hadn't thought of it at the time, but looking at it from now, she can see it.!

(a breakthrough I think)

She just didn't feel investigating Allison's arguments was particularly important, I don't think.

Who? Who?? (TA and PS)

Also, what was the Mr X thing all about on last thread?