29 deaths in Norway linked to vaccine?

[Lookingforwardto2021]

www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n149

Updated by Norway’s health agency to 29. What is going on? Why haven’t we heard about this in UK?

Especially given that we are vaccinating a similar age group here

Also, I heard about this because an elderly relative in Germany was advised not to take the vaccine because of this.

Surely it is a big deal if we cannot use vaccines on our elderly and vulnerable?

And Is this only with the Pfizer one or for all Covid vaccines?

Very frail elderly people nearing end-of-life are not able to tolerate the Pfizer vaccine's side effects of fever, nausea etc apparently.

I think they are warning against giving this one to this group in Norway now.

It will be happening everywhere. Probably just that drug surveillance and reporting is better in Norway. Although I have heard some rumblings from drs in the UK too.

Jesus that's a bit worrying!

Surely we've vaccinated more people though? Isn't there somewhere that adverse effects are reported?

It’s bound to happen to some as some are very elderly.

We have and there was a thread on it the other day. It seems the decision to vaccinate may need to have the benefits and risks weighed up for the most frail if the link is there.

@hopeinavial

Very frail elderly people nearing end-of-life are not able to tolerate the Pfizer vaccine's side effects of fever, nausea etc apparently.

I think they are warning against giving this one to this group in Norway now.

It will be happening everywhere. Probably just that drug surveillance and reporting is better in Norway. Although I have heard some rumblings from drs in the UK too.

But isn't that the demographic we're trying to protect?

I wonder if this demographic are going to be given the Oxford instead then?

Ive seen it in the news, so im not sure why you think its not been reported in uk.

Very frail elderly people are at risk, but its a bit hard to say whether its correlation or cause

Surely this is no different to any treatment with give very elderly vulnerable people? We always weigh up whether the effects of the treatment is worth it to the person?
You don’t operate on a 96 y.o lady if she falls and breaks her hip if you don’t think she will be able to tolerate the anaesthetic, operation and recovery?

Apparently Norway lowered the age of those vulnerable from 80 to 75. 75 is not that old, even with underlying conditions

www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2021-01-16/norway-vaccine-fatalities-among-people-75-and-older-rise-to-29

Surely if you are very elderly and frail, then anything at all, be it Covid, a common cold, or the side effects of a vaccine could be the thing that finishes you off? And all vaccines carry some sort of risk and side effects, I guess if they didn't they wouldn't be doing anything significant in the body!

It says it not clear that the deaths are linked to the vaccine anyway. Yes of course it should be investigated, monitored etc but I'm not panicking just yet.

If these people were end of life, rather than just elderly, can it sometimes just be a coincidence that they have died after a vaccine

But isn't that the demographic we're trying to protect?

Exactly and continental Europe has put a large proportion of its investment and stockpile into the Pfizer jab.

My understanding is that the Norwegian causalities were extremely old and fragile (90+). So very different to a 70 something in good health.

But we clearly need to think carefully about whether vaccinating the most frail is the right thing to do.

I am panicking just a bit. I wanted my dad to get vaccinated and he has underlying conditions. I think he is a fit oldie though, all things considered. But what is the threshold of ‘underlying conditions’ here, I wonder...

And to the pp who said it has been reported in UK newspapers, could you provide a link please? I must have missed it.

can it sometimes just be a coincidence that they have died after a vaccine

Or simply that it doesn’t take much and the expected side effects of the vaccine are enough, at this age.

So far as I’m aware, all of the reporting in Norway is about a tentative correlation between the immunization and morbidity.

To state the obvious, correlation does not mean causation. Here, the recipients are an elderly and/or clinically vulnerable demographic, so while the correlation will no doubt be studied, it would just reflect how these individuals were at a higher risk of morbidity in any event.

@TheKeatingFive

My understanding is that the Norwegian causalities were extremely old and fragile (90+). So very different to a 70 something in good health.

But we clearly need to think carefully about whether vaccinating the most frail is the right thing to do.

Apparently the warning is for 75+ not just 90+

The vax going to the frail elderly in the UK - emphasis on the frail, who are overwhelmingly in nursing homes or unable to travel for the vaccine - will likely be the Oxford / AZ one because it is more stable and can be taken to the homes. Which may be a good thing reading this...

DH (GP) had a left-over Pfizer one on Friday (extra dose left in bottom of vial when all of the elderly present had been vaccinated) and the side-effects pole-axed him for all of Saturday - felt utterly dreadful. However, he has had the virus in October (PCR confirmed) and was in hospital with it so we don't want a repeat. He feels loads better today. Quite glad that when my turn comes around it's likely to be the AZ.

If you google norwegian deaths from vaccine, theres quite a few. I can see some of the tabloids reported it but also the guardian

@Branleuse the Guardian did not report “deaths from vaccine”, that is entirely what you have inferred and is false / misinformation.

The Guardian reported that some deaths, following administration of the vaccine, are being studied, which is very different.

Had they had the one dose or both?

Are most of the over 80s we have vaccinated so far the more mobile, not so frail or ill ones, as have been ones where they have had to go to the vaccination centre?

If you took a random sample of a large amount of people in that age demographic then a certain number of people (albeit a very small percentage) would be expected to die within the next x weeks (1 week, 3 weeks or whatever). So it may not necessarily have anything to with the vaccine, obviously that's something that needs to be established. Also need to bear in mind that vaccine protection takes time, plus there is uncertainty regarding levels of efficacy after one dose, particularly in older age groups, so covid is still a risk too:
www.bbc.com/future/article/20210114-covid-19-how-effective-is-a-single-vaccine-dose

@Branleuse, there is barely any news, even in the Guardian. I glance at newspaper headlines everyday and this didn’t jump out, although it is major news, I should think.

And why aren’t we hearing about UK cases given we have been vaccinating a similar population with the Pfizer one for a similar or even longer period of time? Is it that we haven’t had cases here, we haven’t been observing/investigating deaths?

It is the lack of transparency that worries me too, tbh.