29 deaths in Norway linked to vaccine?

[Lookingforwardto2021]

www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n149

Updated by Norway’s health agency to 29. What is going on? Why haven’t we heard about this in UK?

[Lookingforwardto2021]

Also, publishing the data might help academics and a broad set of policy experts navigate the way ahead.

For example, based on the adverse reactions data, they may decide to give the vaccine to young healthy people first (18 to 65) if they are less likely to have severe side effects, and reduce transmission via that approach.

[Beetle11]

May be a silly question, but how easy is it to differentiate between an adverse reaction and other causes in an elderly frail person?

[SchnitzelVonCrummsTum]

@Beetle11 - unusually high levels of specific events tend to be spotted on a group (vs individual) level first e.g. clusterings of events, then the individual circumstances are looked into more thoroughly. But as seen with the anaphylactoid events, it didn't take many of them for a flag to be raised. I would speculate - but don't know - that is is a harder thing to spot in statistical terms if the adverse outcome is something that is relatively common in the particular population (e.g. death in the frail elderly population vs death in those who are less likely to die).

[SchnitzelVonCrummsTum]

... but of course, that's why all even remotely possibly related events are reported so that patterns can be spotted as fast as possible despite different levels of baseline incidence in different populations.

[Beetle11]

Makes sense - thank you!

[Wbeezer]

My 80 year old Dad has had the Oxford vaccine, no discernible side effects at all. Just thought some of you might find that a wee bit reassuring.

[Balhammom]

I find it fascinating how these threads bring out the divide between those who (i) rely on demonstrable scientific proof and proper statistical analysis, and those who (ii) are quite happy to base their decision on whether or not to take the vaccine on a DM article and a rumor that someone a few blocks away got the sniffles five weeks after being given a jab.

[Lookingforwardto2021]

“Rely on demonstrable scientific proof and proper statistical analysis”

Tbf, the scientific ‘proof’ is still being developed through real life vaccinations. That’s why it is so important to track effects systematically, log this transparently, have rigorous analysis from various scientific communities and keep an open mind without dogma (on either side).

[fiveoldteddies]

btw this was in one of the leaflets I received before being vaccinated (and which I used to report side effects)

coronavirus-yellowcard.mhra.gov.uk/

[Xenia]

Yes, the yellow card system has been in place for years and is a very useful way for GPs etc to report things about patients.

No one disputes the vaccine will kill some people and most people will be more likely to be vaccinated when states are honest about the side effects and death rates. There will not be vast numbers of deaths and it will be worth most older people having the vaccine but it is an entirely free choice in the UK and rightly so.

[everythingthelighttouches]

Hmmm... I suspect it is expected for those patients. They are not just “elderly”

The head of their version of the MHRA said

“We are not alarmed or worried about this, because these are very rare occurrences and they occurred in very frail patients with very serious disease,”

It will be interesting, if they do find a link to the vaccine, to know exactly how sick the patients were.

[Northernsoulgirl45]

Why is it ok to brush off these deaths soon after taking the vaccine as deaths that don't matter as they probably would have happened anyway to the old and infirm?

But then the prevailing narrative since March has been that Covid deaths in the very elderly(which are the vast majority as the median age of death is people in their 80s with underlying conditions) are totally unacceptable and we must lockdown the whole country in order to prevent the deaths of these people would most likely have died that year anyway?



OK so the 29 deaths were the very frailest Nursing home residents. All over 80. We are constantly bring told by the miminisers that most people in Nursing Home die within six months so they don't matter. Hell there's a thread on here tonight pretty much discounting all deaths over 60.

It works both ways.

the article it says this.
All deaths are thus linked to this vaccine,” the Norwegian Medicines Agency said in a written response to Bloomberg on Saturday.

The article I saw said 13 were linked to poor handling of vaccine side effects or potential exacerbation of pre existing conditions.

Must have another read

[Northernsoulgirl45]

Bold fail

[Northernsoulgirl45]

www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/norway-23-people-die-within-days-of-getting-first-covid-19-vaccine-dose-101610804880470.html

This suggests 13.

[MercyBooth]

Totally agree @hollyangel

[Wingedharpy]

Lock down has never been about saving lives.

It's about minimising/reducing the demand for hospital in-patient beds by the very ill, due to Covid.

80 odd year olds, who live in a Nursing home, will not be people who are as fit as a fiddle - otherwise, they'd be living at home.

[hollyangel]

@balhanham I think you might find that most of us are somewhere between the two. Can't say I ever reference the Daily Mail and I know very well anecdotal evidence is not something you can base a decision on.

It's funny though, the way the media cherry-picks stories about young people with Covid getting extremely ill or else dying, even though the vast majority who are affected by Covid are very elderly and have multiple underlying conditions.
For some reason in those scenarios, when they are trying to convince people of the severity of Covid, anecdotes are perfectly acceptable.

[hollyangel]

@Wingedharpy Sorry, I don't understand your point, are the people in nursing homes not important too? There are many countries with an adequate health service who have instigated lockdowns to save lives, not just to relieve pressure on a health service.

also, what about all the people who are living with undiagnosed cancers due to missed screenings caused by lockdowns? As per article below this month:

Up to 50,000 people could be living with undiagnosed cancer due to delayed services in the NHS, according to Macmillan.
The charity warned that unless the vital cancer services are protected, the amount of people undiagnosed could double to 100,000 next year.

www.google.ie/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/news/royal/1378721/prince-charles-news-coronavirus-cancer-macmillan-nhs-cases-death-royal-family-ont/amp

Do these people not matter as much as Covid patients?

[nettie434]

I think the Norwegian deaths have been covered here. This is from The Sun:

www.thesun.co.uk/news/13758376/covid-norway-vaccine-deaths-pfizer-nursing-home/

Even when the vaccines were still being trialled, there were warnings that some people are allergic to one or more of the ingredients in the vaccine.

As a previous poster mentioned, the Yellow Card system already exists for reporting side effects. It's mentioned on this gov.uk website.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/regulatory-approval-of-pfizer-biontech-vaccine-for-covid-19/information-for-uk-recipients-on-pfizerbiontech-covid-19-vaccine#what-you-need-to-know-before-you-receive-covid-19-mrna-vaccine-bnt162b2

Most drugs tend to be tested on younger populations so it is not surprising that very frail nursing home residents may experience some side effects. I also think there are systems in place to identify where the vaccine may not be suitable for people who are in the last weeks of life, as some of the Norwegian care home residents who have died were.

[fiveoldteddies]

Regarding confusion about numbers:
"As of 14 January, 23 reports of suspected deaths have been submitted to the Norwegian ADR health registry. The figures in the published report include the thirteen reports that have been assessed by the Norwegian Medicines Agency and the National Institute of Public Health."


And from their weekly report 14-1-21 In Norway, the vaccination campaign (handled by the National Institute of Public Health)
have prioritized the elderly in nursing homes and long-term care facilities.

So far, this is the
only group of patients for whom vaccination has taken place (until 15/01/2021 only with
Comirnaty. Vaccination with Moderna starts /15/01/2021).


Og course yellow card has been around for longer, but I have only been involved with this from the HCP side, never needed it as the "patient" "consumer" side :)

[everythingthelighttouches]

Northernsoulgirl

I completely agree that it works both ways.

We cannot on the one hand cry ageism and callousness at those who say older people or clinically vulnerable people “would have died anyway” or “that’s life” and on the other hand say exactly that if the same is happening from vaccines.

However it isn’t.

Thousands upon thousands of people are dying every day from covid and it looks like (potentially, but they are still investigating it) some people will die from the vaccine.

It’s a dreadful situation to be in but I think most people will reluctantly swallow a lesser number of deaths from the vaccine (if that turns out to be the case).

It’s just incredibly difficult for us to fathom and come to terms with the fact that we personally are living through this horrendous time and that these choices have to be made.

It is exactly the same for lockdown. It makes me incredibly sad to think of the pain, sickness, death, poverty and abuse that lockdown has created and will create for years to come.

It is painful to reconcile myself with the fact that I still think it’s necessary.

That is my government’s choice and that would be my choice.

Because the alternative to vaccination or lockdown would be catastrophic.

Many times more people would die, be in pain, be denied care and basic necessities, be in poverty.

Wow! That was a ramble!

Anyway, yes, those people’s lives matter too.

[everythingthelighttouches]

This article explains how a small number of people will coincidentally die after having had their vaccine.

www.statnews.com/2020/12/28/chance-illnesses-after-covid-19-vaccinations-could-test-public-confidence-even-if-the-problems-are-unrelated/

This is very different from the thousands of people who are dying because of COVID19.

[trulydelicious]

@everythingthelighttouches

Please read the BMJ. It is not clear whether the Norway cases are a coincidence

It may be a coincidence, but we aren’t sure

www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n149

[Jellington]

I think if you vaccinate millions of people within an age group likely to die anyway, it's very possible that a few will die after the vaccine. It's important to remember that correlation does not equal causation. Reporting in the UK to the MHRA is such that if you got hit by a bus after the vaccine, it would still be reported because technically you can't rule out vaccine involvement. The information that has been provided means nothing. It's also worth thinking about how many of that group would die if they got Covid. Everything is a risk benefit assessment.

[Jellington]

29 deaths in more than 43000 people vaccinated.