29 deaths in Norway linked to vaccine?

[Lookingforwardto2021]

www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n149

Updated by Norway’s health agency to 29. What is going on? Why haven’t we heard about this in UK?

[fiveoldteddies]

Doireallyneedaname
Bit unclear but on their website of Norwegian Med Agency 23 deaths (within 6 days of having received the vaccine) were reported to them. In their weekly report from 14th Jan 13 were noted as death, with 29 in total having received side effects ( with death 13, and remaining other severe side effects).
Interesting as in Norway these people were given vaccine quite quickly. In my part of the county they haven't actually started on care homes despite they are supposed to be first priority. They have done well in vaccinating the "mobile" over 80s.

[doireallyneedaname]

It was actually 13 cornfield, not 29. All were over 75 and extremely frail; so it is likely at this stage that they simply couldn’t handle the side effects of the vaccine (fever, etc)

[reesewithoutaspoon]

nearly 90000 deaths linked to covid. I know which choice I prefer

[everythingthelighttouches]

trulydelicious

“Please read the BMJ.”

I did.

see my post at 10.49 this morning.

There may be deaths associated with the vaccine in some people who were very ill (looking like they’re leaning in that direction in Norway but haven’t concluded their investigation).

But there definitely will be coincidental deaths which will falsely worry people about taking the vaccine and the likelihood of some kind of danger or risk.

This is why regulatory authorities have to be careful and thoroughly investigate each case, so we can accurately represent any risk and mitigate by not vaccinating certain groups.

[fiveoldteddies]

interesting, had a look at various Norwegian news websites, more about skiing than about vaccinations...

[fiveoldteddies]

Directly from their website of The Norwegian Medicines Agency


Covid-19 vaccination associated with adverse drug reactions in elderly people who are frail.

As of 14 January, 23 reports of suspected deaths associated with covid-19 vaccines have been submitted to the Norwegian ADR health registry .

Oppdatert: 18.01.2021

Publisert: 15.01.2021

In Norway we are now vaccinating the elderly and people in nursing homes with serious underlying diseases, therefore it is expected that deaths close to the time vaccination may occur.

All reports of suspected adverse reactions with fatal outcome following vaccination are carefully assessed.

"The reports suggest that common adverse reactions to mRNA vaccines, such as fever and nausea, may have contributed to a fatal outcome in some frail patients", says Sigurd Hortemo, chief physician at the Norwegian Medicines Agency.

The large studies on Comirnaty (BioNTec/Pfizer) did not include patients with unstable or acute illness - and included few participants over 85 years of age. In Norway we are now vaccinating the elderly and people in nursing homes with serious underlying diseases, therefore it is expected that deaths close to the time vaccination may occur. In Norway, an average of 400 people die each week in nursing homes and long-term care facilities.

All deaths that occur within the first few days of vaccination are carefully assessed. We cannot rule out that adverse reactions to the vaccine occurring within the first days following vaccination (such as fever and nausea) may contribute to more serious course and fatal outcome in patients with severe underlying disease.

The Norwegian Medicines Agency and the National Institute of Public Health jointly assess all reports of suspected adverse reactions. Consequently, the Norwegian Institute of Public health has emphasised its advice regarding frail or terminally ill patients. An evaluation should be carried for each individual patient as to whether the benefits of vaccination outweigh the risks of eventual side effects. The reported cases have had no impact on the Norwegian vaccination strategy.

[trulydelicious]

How could they have investigated 23 deaths in a day?

[trulydelicious]

@LemonTT

Do you have a link for the update? I understand they are still investigating but the wording has been softened today somewhat so as not to cause unnecessary alarm?

The side effects of immunization can, in some cases, “tip the patients into a more serious course of the underlying disease,” Madsen said. We can’t rule that out

www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-01-18/norway-finds-no-direct-link-between-elderly-deaths-and-vaccine

[Lookingforwardto2021]

@LemonTT

Well, surprisingly the OP has not been back to update everyone on the unsurprising finding by the Norwegian government that there was no link between the deaths and the vaccine.

People die and really old people die a lot more frequently. Eventually most people will be vaccinated. Some of them will die. Some with dance a jig. But that’s not a consequence of being vaccinated.

I’m back, please feel free to link to the update.

It is good news if there is no link. I am pro transparency, and am reassured that the Norway govt has been proactive, open and investigative

[LemonTT]

Well, surprisingly the OP has not been back to update everyone on the unsurprising finding by the Norwegian government that there was no link between the deaths and the vaccine.

People die and really old people die a lot more frequently. Eventually most people will be vaccinated. Some of them will die. Some with dance a jig. But that’s not a consequence of being vaccinated.

[Jellington]

29 deaths in more than 43000 people vaccinated.

[Jellington]

I think if you vaccinate millions of people within an age group likely to die anyway, it's very possible that a few will die after the vaccine. It's important to remember that correlation does not equal causation. Reporting in the UK to the MHRA is such that if you got hit by a bus after the vaccine, it would still be reported because technically you can't rule out vaccine involvement. The information that has been provided means nothing. It's also worth thinking about how many of that group would die if they got Covid. Everything is a risk benefit assessment.

[trulydelicious]

@everythingthelighttouches

Please read the BMJ. It is not clear whether the Norway cases are a coincidence

It may be a coincidence, but we aren’t sure

www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n149

[everythingthelighttouches]

This article explains how a small number of people will coincidentally die after having had their vaccine.

www.statnews.com/2020/12/28/chance-illnesses-after-covid-19-vaccinations-could-test-public-confidence-even-if-the-problems-are-unrelated/

This is very different from the thousands of people who are dying because of COVID19.

[everythingthelighttouches]

Northernsoulgirl

I completely agree that it works both ways.

We cannot on the one hand cry ageism and callousness at those who say older people or clinically vulnerable people “would have died anyway” or “that’s life” and on the other hand say exactly that if the same is happening from vaccines.

However it isn’t.

Thousands upon thousands of people are dying every day from covid and it looks like (potentially, but they are still investigating it) some people will die from the vaccine.

It’s a dreadful situation to be in but I think most people will reluctantly swallow a lesser number of deaths from the vaccine (if that turns out to be the case).

It’s just incredibly difficult for us to fathom and come to terms with the fact that we personally are living through this horrendous time and that these choices have to be made.

It is exactly the same for lockdown. It makes me incredibly sad to think of the pain, sickness, death, poverty and abuse that lockdown has created and will create for years to come.

It is painful to reconcile myself with the fact that I still think it’s necessary.

That is my government’s choice and that would be my choice.

Because the alternative to vaccination or lockdown would be catastrophic.

Many times more people would die, be in pain, be denied care and basic necessities, be in poverty.

Wow! That was a ramble!

Anyway, yes, those people’s lives matter too.

[fiveoldteddies]

Regarding confusion about numbers:
"As of 14 January, 23 reports of suspected deaths have been submitted to the Norwegian ADR health registry. The figures in the published report include the thirteen reports that have been assessed by the Norwegian Medicines Agency and the National Institute of Public Health."


And from their weekly report 14-1-21 In Norway, the vaccination campaign (handled by the National Institute of Public Health)
have prioritized the elderly in nursing homes and long-term care facilities.

So far, this is the
only group of patients for whom vaccination has taken place (until 15/01/2021 only with
Comirnaty. Vaccination with Moderna starts /15/01/2021).


Og course yellow card has been around for longer, but I have only been involved with this from the HCP side, never needed it as the "patient" "consumer" side :)

[nettie434]

I think the Norwegian deaths have been covered here. This is from The Sun:

www.thesun.co.uk/news/13758376/covid-norway-vaccine-deaths-pfizer-nursing-home/

Even when the vaccines were still being trialled, there were warnings that some people are allergic to one or more of the ingredients in the vaccine.

As a previous poster mentioned, the Yellow Card system already exists for reporting side effects. It's mentioned on this gov.uk website.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/regulatory-approval-of-pfizer-biontech-vaccine-for-covid-19/information-for-uk-recipients-on-pfizerbiontech-covid-19-vaccine#what-you-need-to-know-before-you-receive-covid-19-mrna-vaccine-bnt162b2

Most drugs tend to be tested on younger populations so it is not surprising that very frail nursing home residents may experience some side effects. I also think there are systems in place to identify where the vaccine may not be suitable for people who are in the last weeks of life, as some of the Norwegian care home residents who have died were.

[hollyangel]

@Wingedharpy Sorry, I don't understand your point, are the people in nursing homes not important too? There are many countries with an adequate health service who have instigated lockdowns to save lives, not just to relieve pressure on a health service.

also, what about all the people who are living with undiagnosed cancers due to missed screenings caused by lockdowns? As per article below this month:

Up to 50,000 people could be living with undiagnosed cancer due to delayed services in the NHS, according to Macmillan.
The charity warned that unless the vital cancer services are protected, the amount of people undiagnosed could double to 100,000 next year.

www.google.ie/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/news/royal/1378721/prince-charles-news-coronavirus-cancer-macmillan-nhs-cases-death-royal-family-ont/amp

Do these people not matter as much as Covid patients?

[hollyangel]

@balhanham I think you might find that most of us are somewhere between the two. Can't say I ever reference the Daily Mail and I know very well anecdotal evidence is not something you can base a decision on.

It's funny though, the way the media cherry-picks stories about young people with Covid getting extremely ill or else dying, even though the vast majority who are affected by Covid are very elderly and have multiple underlying conditions.
For some reason in those scenarios, when they are trying to convince people of the severity of Covid, anecdotes are perfectly acceptable.

[Wingedharpy]

Lock down has never been about saving lives.

It's about minimising/reducing the demand for hospital in-patient beds by the very ill, due to Covid.

80 odd year olds, who live in a Nursing home, will not be people who are as fit as a fiddle - otherwise, they'd be living at home.

[MercyBooth]

Totally agree @hollyangel

[Northernsoulgirl45]

www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/norway-23-people-die-within-days-of-getting-first-covid-19-vaccine-dose-101610804880470.html

This suggests 13.

[Northernsoulgirl45]

Bold fail

[Northernsoulgirl45]

Why is it ok to brush off these deaths soon after taking the vaccine as deaths that don't matter as they probably would have happened anyway to the old and infirm?

But then the prevailing narrative since March has been that Covid deaths in the very elderly(which are the vast majority as the median age of death is people in their 80s with underlying conditions) are totally unacceptable and we must lockdown the whole country in order to prevent the deaths of these people would most likely have died that year anyway?



OK so the 29 deaths were the very frailest Nursing home residents. All over 80. We are constantly bring told by the miminisers that most people in Nursing Home die within six months so they don't matter. Hell there's a thread on here tonight pretty much discounting all deaths over 60.

It works both ways.

the article it says this.
All deaths are thus linked to this vaccine,” the Norwegian Medicines Agency said in a written response to Bloomberg on Saturday.

The article I saw said 13 were linked to poor handling of vaccine side effects or potential exacerbation of pre existing conditions.

Must have another read

[everythingthelighttouches]

Hmmm... I suspect it is expected for those patients. They are not just “elderly”

The head of their version of the MHRA said

“We are not alarmed or worried about this, because these are very rare occurrences and they occurred in very frail patients with very serious disease,”

It will be interesting, if they do find a link to the vaccine, to know exactly how sick the patients were.