29 deaths in Norway linked to vaccine?

[Lookingforwardto2021]

www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n149

Updated by Norway’s health agency to 29. What is going on? Why haven’t we heard about this in UK?

@Lookingforwardto2021 I'd report the GP in this instance. It is essential old people are vaccinated or the rest of us have to live in lockdown indefinitely. The GP is highly irresponsible spreading unsubstantiated codswallsp.

Could anyone answer this question for me? Why does everyone have to be vaccinated? Surely if the vaccine works the way they say it will, and the vast majority of people get vaccinated then deaths will decrease and sick people with Covid will cease to be a burden on the NHS.
All this talk of Covid vaccination passports is baffling to me. Why would that be necessary after the bulk of the people who want the vaccine get it?
I understand there are a small minority who cannot get vaccinated. But this is the case for all vaccines and no other vaccines are mandatory?

@Rachie1973 - DH is fairly sure he felt dreadful (Covid-like) because he'd actually had Covid so his immune system mounted a stronger reaction as a consequence. No idea if that is a consequence or a coincidence but it does have a plausible mechanism and obviously should not put anyone off having the vaccine. Anecdote is not data - but I made that clear when I shared his experience. Will be interesting to see if this is something reported by other people with a history of Covid too.

@ukmail - no clearly not a big deal. Worth noting if it turns out to be a pattern rather than anecdote just so people are prepared for feeling a bit rubbish if they happen to have previously had Covid tho!

Apologies, my first paragraph above was a quote from someone else, not be repeating it. I was just referencing their comment that the old people need to be vaccinated or else lockdowns will go on forever.

@boon

This thread has totally freaked me out. My mum is 67 but immunosupressed and not well at all at the moment with chronic lung problem. Now Im wondering what the vaccine is going to do to her. Wish I hadn't seen this.

my dad who is 93 and my mum who is 83 have have the jab and the booster. Both have bad COPD and my dad is currently being treated for a large blood clot and prostate cancer. They have had no side effects so far apart from a slightly sore arm for my mum ( which is to be expected). They had their first jab 3 weeks ago and the 2nd one last Monday and both say they feel fine. Just thought this may reassure you a little. At the end of the day its a balance of risk I guess - the possible risk of a serious adverse reaction to the jab ( unlikely ) versus the possible risk of catching COVID and becoming seriously ill ( more likely )

Why is it ok to brush off these deaths soon after taking the vaccine as deaths that don't matter as they probably would have happened anyway to the old and infirm?

But then the prevailing narrative since March has been that Covid deaths in the very elderly (which are the vast majority as the median age of death is people in their 80s with underlying conditions) are totally unacceptable and we must lockdown the whole country in order to prevent the deaths of these people would most likely have died that year anyway?

I wouldn't say they "don't matter" - after all every death matters to someone - but it's a good point all the same, as was the mention of the narrative that "one death's one too many"

Don't hold your breath expecting it to be answered though ...

[quote Lookingforwardto2021]@Grobagsforever, why would he report his go for advising that in his case the vaccine is risky? That’s what the Norway health authority seems to be advising, for doctors to have that conversation. He is in Germany and they seem to be cautious[/quote]
@Lookingforwardto2021

Because there's no research that conforms it is risky but PLENTY that confirms COVID is. If all over 80's with conditions take this attitude then death rates won't come down.

A GP should understand this.

Could it be that the people who unfortunately died after the vaccine were already close to death. We have to accept death as a normal and expected part of life.

Also to be clear, when I said I'm glad I'm likely to have the AZ vax it's not because I believe, or DH (as a GP) believes, anything sinister about the Pfizer one. It's because I have also had Covid and fancy trying my luck with a different set of side-effects far more than I fancy catching Covid again ;)

We are both completely pro-vax. But pretending that vaccines don't sometimes have (largely completely tolerable) side effects is stupid.

@Grobagsforever,

The Norwegian health authority has asked docs to evaluate whether a person should get the vaccine. Presumably his GP in Germany has received similar advice and is doing the responsible thing about evaluating whether he should get the vaccine. It is not one size fits all. Better than being rah rah and burying your head in the sand.

This is regarding the Norway review which seems balanced and non-judgemental

“The latest deaths, which all occurred among patients in nursing homes, prompted officials to adjust their advice on who gets the COVID-19 vaccine, leaving it up to individual doctors to decide who should be vaccinated.

The country also warned that other countries should keep an eye on their elderly vaccine recipients in the most cautious statement from a European health authority yet.“

@Lookingforwardto2021

Exactly. Individual doctors who may or may not have done anything their research, may or may have unreasonable suspicions around the vaccine and who certainly do not have detailed knowledge of how the vaccines interacts with underlying conditions.

The elderly need to get vaccinated, they cannot expect to rely on herd immunity through the rest of us getting it

@Grobagsforever

I'd report the GP in this instance

Why should the GP be reported? He was most likely doing his job carrying out a risk assessment before deciding whether his patient was a suitable candidate to receive the vaccine?

In reality, this risk assessment should be carried out on everyone

Or do people expect vaccinators to run around frantically trying to jab everything that moves regardless of risk?

Exactly @Grobagsforever I agree

29 out of 42000 people dying is something like 0.06% which is way less than the risks in the older age group of being hospitalised with Covid.

Some care home residents are having the Pfizer vaccine. My very frail mother in law (84) did with no problems. Without it she faced being isolated from her family for even longer than she already has. Not really much to consider as far as she was concerned.

The BMJ article says that 400 people in care homes (in Norway, I assume, as that's where it's talking about) every week. So it doesn't seem particularly alarming that 29 of them had recently had a vaccine. Or a cup of tea, or a painkiller, or cheese, etc, etc. It doesn't even say that the 29 people died in one week.

@Beetle11 - yes, it can be done but it's more difficult logistically and tends to be easier in large care homes (as all doses need to be used in the care-home not taken out of it). Really glad she had an easy time of it and no side-effects! I am sure she feels very relieved.

Oops. 400 people die in care homes.

@MadameBlobby. Thanks that’s calmed me !

For what it's worth, I think the fact that they're monitoring all possible events - and the press is free to report them - is evidence that our vaccine safety systems and public health systems really work. I don't find the original piece in the BMJ alarming, I find it reassuring that the surveillance is in place. As others say, it could be something or nothing, statistically more likely to be nothing, but checking out everything is the way that we keep public confidence.

@SchnitzelVonCrummsTum

For what it's worth, I think the fact that they're monitoring all possible events - and the press is free to report them - is evidence that our vaccine safety systems and public health systems really work. I don't find the original piece in the BMJ alarming, I find it reassuring that the surveillance is in place. As others say, it could be something or nothing, statistically more likely to be nothing, but checking out everything is the way that we keep public confidence.

In Norway yes.

What/where are the reports here in UK?

Lookingforwardto2021
Yes I saw the BMJ already before
this is from 14th Jan (so 1 day before BMJ 15th Jan)

legemiddelverket.no/Documents/English/Covid-19/Adverse%20drug%20reactions%20covid-19%20vaccines%20as%20of%20January%2014%202021.pdf
Severity
Total number of reports 29
Number of reports with fatal outcome 13
Serious reports 9
excluding death 9
Non-serious reports 7

I am guessing it's a co-incidence of numbers
Their report from 15th:
legemiddelverket.no/nyheter/covid-19-vaccination-associated-with-deaths-in-elderly-people-who-are-frail
23 deaths associated with covid-19 vaccination of which 13 have been assessed.

They will be carefully monitoring serious adverse events in the UK too. I think our system is generally less efficient but it's not designed to hide anything.

@SchnitzelVonCrummsTum

They will be carefully monitoring serious adverse events in the UK too. I think our system is generally less efficient but it's not designed to hide anything.

I agree. I’d like to see the data here though. Why isn't it in the public domain? Or maybe it is, and someone here could kindly point to it

Well, a good example of the system working is the MHRA advice issued swiftly after just a handful of allergic reactions in a very small number of people (approx 2?) in December.

There's also this. I don't know enough about the company given the contract to come to any conclusions about whether this is privatisation or not (!) but the big data approach is sensible.

www.healthcareitnews.com/news/emea/uk-use-ai-covid-19-vaccine-side-effects

[quote SchnitzelVonCrummsTum]There's also this. I don't know enough about the company given the contract to come to any conclusions about whether this is privatisation or not (!) but the big data approach is sensible.

www.healthcareitnews.com/news/emea/uk-use-ai-covid-19-vaccine-side-effects[/quote]
I think a big data approach is very sensible!

I’d still like them to publish the adverse reaction reports on a regular basis. Simply numbers of adverse reactions by severity and some demographic breakdown. It will help with transparency and confidence.

Reading the Norway health report made me ask, why haven’t I seen this data for here? I just assumed there were no deaths associated with the jab. And if is the case that there are deaths, similar to Norway, but this has not been shared publicly, it might be impact trust