Can you be anti-Zionist without being antisemitic?

[TrigTannet]

I’m inclined to think the answer is no, but I’ve seen a lot of people on here recently attempting to say that they’re not antisemitic, they’re just anti-Zionism. I would love to hear someone explain how they imagine that works.

As I understand it, Zionism is a political ideology which says that Jews should have self determination in their homeland. Many minority indigenous peoples want, and have, some level of self determination, from fully sovereign states to devolution or reserves with different laws. The world overwhelmingly supports that. What is the moral argument against self determination for Jews?

Heard a Rabbi talking about being anti Zionist so I guess that it is possible.

Yes.

a definition of Zionism: a movement for (originally) the re-establishment and (now) the development and protection of a Jewish nation in what is now Israel.

so you say you are against the "development and protection of a Jewish nation" - I wonder if there is another word for it?...

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/anti-zionism-among-jews

there you go, all explained for you.

Some bed time reading for you.

We call people that bomb civilians en masse and forcibly evict them from their lands... what? Maybe the ICJ could weigh in on the mysteries of this term for Israel's actions.

My impression of the mners attempting to claim they’re not antisemitic just anti Zionist is that they’re probably not members of an extreme Jewish religious minority. Perhaps I’m wrong though! @Tel12 @SalutDecorum ?

Think of it this way. You can be anti-Nazi and not anti-German. I can be anti-Wahhabist and not anti-Islam. I can appreciate nuance, which is greatly eroded when the automatic shutdown from the Israeli government and military is any disagreement means you hate Jews.

This is what Zionism gets you. https://x.com/TorahJudaism/status/1719741630763159672?s=20

I literally don't understand what are you trying to say? Some powerful deflection is going on here. But I can play this game, too. Read up on SA here ))
https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2022/country-chapters/south-africa

I

@SalutDecorum It seems like you’re implying that it is Israel’s fault that they have had to defend themselves from attacks by Palestinians and other Arab nations since the day the country was established. What do you think they should do / should have done differently?

At the same time Israel was formed, hundreds of thousands of minorities were being moved around Europe too. And of course almost all of the Jews of the Arab world were expelled to Israel. Today no one knows for example which Germans are descended from Sudetan Germans who were deported to Germany because they’re full, normal citizens. It seems to me that the situation would be better if they had forcibly relocated all of the Muslims of Transjordan to the Muslim part before Britain withdrew. By now they’d be perfectly normal Jordanian citizens living perfectly normal lives. Obviously no winding back the clock though.

What the hell has South Africa got to do with any of this?

These are extremists. I can find you some lovely footage of Islamist extremists, too. Do they represent all Muslims? No.

Read the ICJ ruling. There is no self-defence for an occupying power against a non-state entity.

Okay? Great?

Are you for real?
https://www.theguardian.com/law/2024/jan/26/icj-to-rule-on-south-africas-case-alleging-israeli-genocide-in-gaza

@SalutDecorum I think a closer analogy would be to say “I don’t hate Germans, I just think they don’t deserve a country and should all die / go somewhere else where they’re likely to be murdered.” Nazism has nothing to do with it. Zionism is not a political party, its belief in a nation state.

Sweetheart, do keep up

Your non-sequiturs a tad tiresome. I didn't think my point was a "hurr, I can also bring up examples and bigotry". Like, great. What's your point? Mine wasn't my argument. That was addressed in the article that someone else decided to respond with something totally unrelated.

So you didn't read the two articles that put this to bed then. Cool.

Have fun tilting at windmills, love. I'll be over there, ignoring you.

Its hard to have a discussion with someone who is not open to discussion. I have seen, sadly, a massive rise in antisemitism, covered up with a fig leaf of "I actually hate Zionists, not all Jews". No amount of patronising "love" and "sweetheart" will cover up the gloat of someone who is finally allowed to display their hate freely.

Israel was never "established". Palestine never agreed to splitting their soil. Thanks to the UK & US they forcibly took it anyway. What do you think this war is actually about?

I don’t think it’s reasonable to say “I posted 2 articles so the thread is over”. I think your analogy is wrong, so I told you why. Conventionally you would respond by defending your point.

To me it seems like a false analogy. Like saying “I don’t hate Christians, I just think they shouldn’t be allowed to have a Christian country and all of the Christian countries should be run by Muslims instead.” Do you see why it’s absurd now?

There was never a country called Palestine. It literally never existed.

I’m inclined to think the answer is no

Your inclination is entirely correct. Unfortunately, any thread with the word Zionism, Jews or Antisemitism in the title will largely attract posters keen to grandstand their total ignorance and bigotry about all three of these things so buckle up.