Can you be anti-Zionist without being antisemitic?

[TrigTannet]

I’m inclined to think the answer is no, but I’ve seen a lot of people on here recently attempting to say that they’re not antisemitic, they’re just anti-Zionism. I would love to hear someone explain how they imagine that works.

As I understand it, Zionism is a political ideology which says that Jews should have self determination in their homeland. Many minority indigenous peoples want, and have, some level of self determination, from fully sovereign states to devolution or reserves with different laws. The world overwhelmingly supports that. What is the moral argument against self determination for Jews?

The post was entirely relevant to the OP's original post.

I've seen it written on here that if you have 2 jews in a room you'll get 3 opinions, (you could say the same about mumsnetters), so it seems to me that an objective definition of zionism may not reach a consensus.

That said, I won't use the perceived ambiguity of the word as a weapon to hide antisemitism.

@1dayatatime

I still think that the average person values stability, peace and economic prosperity over more emotion driven ideals such as sovereignty or democracy etc. Which brings me back to my view that ordinary Gazans need to see a better alternative and need to see hope. To do this the West Bank must be made to work as stable and prosperous and ordinary West Bank Palestinians need to get behind this as well and not simply go through life as victims.

Because if that fails then the only other solution is "last man standing".

I agree about the west bank, but it can't be ignored that alot of the issues in there are due to the occupation and they are victims of the occupation. They are too well aware that there lives matter less through everyday examples of oppression. It can only happen if there is a independant state for the Palestinians where they are not living as second class citizens.

In regards to the last man standing, despite my reservations and criticisms of other countries involved, I do think they would prevent it reaching such a stage (although I have my doubts to what extent)

As was my response.

not read the full thread so apologies if this has already been posted but came across this clip earlier with an interview with Auschwitz survivor Hajo Meyer about Zionism, Judaism, dehumanisation and it speaks to the original post's question in a powerful way.

Powerful and worth a watch.

https://www.instagram.com/p/C2nrOgOIfqN/

Quote from the video / insta post

“I saw In Auschwitz that if a dominant group wants to dehumanise others, as the Nazis dehumanise me, the dominant group must first dehumanise themselves, the same holds nowadays for Israel.

I am appalled about how hateful, how dehumanised, that they do not see any human aspect in any Palestinian anymore.

The Zionists have no right whatsoever to use the Holocaust for any purpose, they have given up everything which has to do with humanity and with empathy”

Hajo Meyer

@1dayatatime do you know many Palestinians from places in the West Bank or Gaza? The idea they go through life "as victims", where does it come from?

Despite living under constant threat of being detained and tortured (an enormous number of Palestinians have been), and living in a totally untenable economic world where the cost of living matches Israel but the wages are much lower, Palestinians in Palestine live beautiful lives full of family, joy, celebration of life's big moments, boredom, gossip and hard work. They live normal lives in incredibly trying circumstances.

Incidentally thousands upon thousands of Palestinians travelled to Israel every single day for work from both Gaza and the west bank because Israel likes to use Palestinians as cheap labour. Because secretly Israelis know, when it suits them, that every day Palestinians aren't trying to viciously murder them the second they can get close enough to try. They're just trying to get by.

Thanks, myself and others posted this earlier and were told it was “offensive at best”. See upthread.

So, for those who consider quoting the views of anti Zionist Holocaust survivors, objectionable, here is a link to the statement from Jewish Voice for peace. They are a Jewish leftist organization who advocate for Palestinian rights and also oppose Zionism.
^^
“Jewish Voice for Peace is guided by a vision of justice, equality and freedom for all people. We unequivocally oppose Zionism because it is counter to those ideals.”

https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/resource/zionism/

thanks @Desertrose2023 sorry to hear some people found it "offensive at best".

It seemed pretty spot on to me. I'm not sure how you can argue with a holocaust survivor.

Only a matter of time before the poster children for antisemitism cloaked as anti-Zionism were invoked. A virulently anti-Israel organisation that is actively harmful to Jews, does not represent the majority of Jews or Jewish values, regularly platforms antisemitic views and tropes and many members of which aren’t even Jewish Not a Jewish voice, not for peace.

Some further background on Moshé Machover

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moshé_Machover

This is an interview with Moshé’s son Daniel Machover (a well known Human rights lawyer) also worth viewing.

Of course Jewish people have the right to a state, but that right doesn’t trump the rights of others In the region.
Many forms of Zionism see the establishment of a majority Jewish state to the ancient borders of Israel as the primary goal. That is not possible without committing terrible crimes against the Palestinian people.

An article by Naomi Klein that is also insightful
https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/oct/11/why-are-some-of-the-left-celebrating-the-killings-of-israeli-jews

@kistanbul indeed, there are a great many religious Zionists who see it as their godly responsibility and right to establish “Greater Israel”. This is a very scary ideology that must be challenged.

I’m uncomfortable with non-Jews using theological arguments about Zionism against Jews.

If that’s aimed at me, I haven’t used any theological arguments against Jews. I’ve noted that there is a form of religious Zionism that exists and that it calls for the expansion of Israel into territories it does not currently hold. this theological form of Zionism actually threatens the lives and rights of people currently in those territories (including friends and family of my own). We’ve seen it manifest through the activities of settlers in the West Bank who are killing and dispossessing Palestinians there. It is entirely within my own right to challenge it.

The answer is No. You are right.

When people say you can what they mean are, ' there are nice Jews who have the same opinions as me, and bad ones who don't.'

I'm not sure how you can argue with a holocaust survivor

So how do you cope when you hear the views of holocaust survivors who support Israel? Do you just change your mind depending on which holocaust survivor happens to be speaking to you at the time? That must get very confusing for you if you hear a debate between holocaust survivors with different opinions. You must have to change your mind every couple of minutes.

Or did you mis-speak and mean to type, ' I am not sure how I can argue with a holocaust survivor who happens to have the same opinion as me.' ?

My comment was about people citing theological arguments against the establishment of the modern state of Israel to claim that anti-Zionism is not anti-semitism. If you’re not Jewish, do not weaponise intra-Jewish debates.

Those who want Israel’s borders to extend to the biblical territory of Israel need to address how it is possible to do so while maintaining the human rights of the Palestinian people.

The premise of the thread was a question on if you can be anti Zionist and not anti semitic. As someone who is anti Zionist and not an antisemite (despite what some posters appear to think of me), I have contributed to the question and have cited the views of some within the Jewish community to demonstrate there isn’t consensus of this topic. It’s not about “good Jew” or “bad Jew” or weaponsing internal debate.

If only the views of the Jewish posters on this board matter, and only they are permitted to have a view on this topic, then can I suggest that this thread is removed from the CIME section, and moved to the Jewish Mumsnetters board.

Those who want Israel’s borders to extend to the biblical territory of Israel need to address how it is possible to do so while maintaining the human rights of the Palestinian people.
This is the biggest contradiction in terms I have even come across so far.

Those who want Israel’s borders to extend to the biblical territory of Israel need to address how it is possible to do so while maintaining the human rights of the Palestinian people
No they need to be told to stick to the 1948 borders.

The problem with Zionism is that it is, at heart, congenital nationalism birthed in a time and place (Europe!) that has historically birthed, housed, and perpetually driven nationalism in many forms; ideologies that have lingered long past the dead empires they were forged in as a reaction to the nationalist movements of the time threatening the very existence of Jews. Fighting fire with fire. “My ideology is bigger than your ideology!” I’m deliberately pointing to Europe (don’t get me started on Russia… it’ll be a long post and I won’t be as sure of my words, which, even now, are flawed).

Theodor Herzl, certainly Zionism’s most progressive and influential leader, came from a family whose Jewish roots were similar to those of my own European ancestors’. They were secular Jews. Assimilation, back then, was necessary. It came at a cost of one’s authentic identity. My family was German first, Jewish second. Much in the way that I am British first, American second, simply because I’ve lived here longer and have assimilated. I no longer feel at home in America… and yet, deep down, my authentic self is passionately American. This is a flawed comparison. I get it.
The difference is, being American in the UK brings me no intolerance and has never been a barricade to opportunities, safety, and well-being here in my adopted homeland. I have assimilated because of time and ease and raising a family in this culture that is now my own. I have not assimilated because I am trying to avoid persecution. Being Jewish in Europe, for centuries, came with a myriad of barriers, with laws imposed in order to secure those barriers. It’s true, some places were better than others, the Rhineland once being Europe’s Jewish heartland where the term Ashkenazi was derived.
Zionism was a nationalist ideology for Jews who felt, very rightfully, unsafe, rejected, devalued, and walking scapegoats in a society fuelled by a host of nationalist ideologies, many specifically established to assist in the destruction of European Jewish identity, livelihood, and safety in regions many Jews, like my own family, had lived in for hundreds of years. I am a first generation American. When I look at my family tree, I see hundreds of old branches from old trees, poisoned at their roots by systemic antisemitism, genocide, and perpetual war. I feel very alone in my history. My family tree is a sad one. But I am proud of it, nonetheless. I can’t help but think the Palestinian people feel the same.

I am not anti Zionist. I’m not pro Zionist. My father never attached himself to ANY ideology, so suffocated was he by (what felt to him like) Europe’s conveyor belt of ideologies. I follow his path. My choice.
My father’s family never wanted to go to Israel. They were strudel eating, mountain hiking Germans… and Jews. He grew up in the Carpathian Mountains. A Middle Eastern desert and Biblical ideology of a homeland made little sense to my family. I’m just telling you what Israel meant to my family. My dad wasn’t anti Zionist or antisemitic. He was fucking tired. Tired of running. Tired of looking like he was 50 at the age of 20. He used to laugh and say, “We were too tired to go and work on a kibbutz in the desert after everything.” Starvation gave my dad rickets and its telltale bow legs and early onset heart failure. He had yet to hold a girl’s hand. He was tired of trying to outrun an inherited, collective existential threat that had preceded him. He was tired of what he called The Malignancy of Man, “I’ve seen it. I’ve lived it,” he told me. So when I see the Palestinian people, their babies’ limbs being blown off before they take a final breath, and the Israeli hostages going down with this geopolitical nightmare of a fucking ship, and the innocent Israeli victims of October 7th enjoying one last dance underneath a cloudless blue sky, I see victims of the mankind’s malignancy. How to stop its spread when it froths from our own bilious mouths is another matter.

What I won’t see in my lifetime is a two state solution. It’s been 75 years. It hasn’t worked. Theodor Herzl’s infamous quote, “If you will it, it is no dream,” has become an existential nightmare for Israel and the entire region. An ideology, founded in late 19th century Europe as a reaction to the longstanding persecution of Jews across Europe, then transplanted to the Levant on the broken wings of Biblical ideology by mostly secular Jews who sought safety through a system that green lighted the usurping of security and homes of the region’s longstanding inhabitants, has not worked. It’s the world’s filthiest argument over real estate EVER. And we’re further away from a two state solution than ever before. This will get zapped. I know.

Of course Jewish people have the right to a state

You say that like it's a given. Like there aren't people on these boards who think otherwise. That Israel shouldn't have been created, that it should be moved to a different country, that it should be dismantled, that is should be absorbed into Palestine. Or in the case of at least one poster that it should be invaded by the UN, it's government violently overthrown and all elected officials replaced indefinitely with unelected foreign officials. People don't say any of that about other countries.