Can you be anti-Zionist without being antisemitic?

[TrigTannet]

I’m inclined to think the answer is no, but I’ve seen a lot of people on here recently attempting to say that they’re not antisemitic, they’re just anti-Zionism. I would love to hear someone explain how they imagine that works.

As I understand it, Zionism is a political ideology which says that Jews should have self determination in their homeland. Many minority indigenous peoples want, and have, some level of self determination, from fully sovereign states to devolution or reserves with different laws. The world overwhelmingly supports that. What is the moral argument against self determination for Jews?

@NeedAllTheHelpICanGet1 Israel quite simple was established. There was UN agreement on it at the time. I don’t know what other word you would use. It was more legally legitimised than the formation of any other new modern states. Usually there’s just a huge war and the winners say “we’re a country now”. The losers don’t get a say and the rest of the world carries on without a glance.
The other minorities being expelled around the world were also not consenting to it (ie all of the Jews from Arab nations who were forced out of their homes and the Europeans being moved around to “tidy up the borders”). Why is this case uniquely different? I think it’s antisemitism, hence why I started the thread!

I disagree. How many countries do you know have illegal settlements within them? None right? Other than "israel". Because they forcibly took what was not theirs. Some bullshit agreement was made to keep those people happy. None of the people who that land belonged to agreed to splitting the country. It was taken from their bare hands by force. And now they're ridding Palestine of the few Palestinians that are left there in which I can only describe as a genocide. Open your eyes people who are the real "anti" whatever in that equation. And whoever the little genius is who says above it was not called Palestine before it was Palestine. My dear friend it was most definitely not Israel at any point in history.

It's not that Jews don't deserve self determinism- it's that Zionists have driven Palestinians off their land and made them suffer. Some Jews and some people don't think that's right. Doesn't make either of those groups antisemitic. But does make them anti Zionist.
Zionists and Jews are not the same thing. My husband is a Jew but not a Zionist.

I agree with this. I am against the Israeli government. I am not against Jews. I am against those people who have forced Palestinians off the land that belongs to them. I am against the murderous acts against women, children and men regardless of the side. There's a lot of "people have the right to defend what's theirs". Why is there an outcry when the Palestinians are fighting for that very same right!!!!!

@NeedAllTheHelpICanGet1 Are you seriously suggesting that no country other than Israel has / is illegally occupying another? Tibet? Ukraine?

Also, where do you think Jews are indigenous to? Arabs come from the Arabian peninsular and have been occupying that part of the world for a very long time, but that doesn’t make them indigenous. Do you think white Australians are indigenous to Australia, or have they not been there long enough yet?! How long do you have to occupy somewhere before the indigenous people loose their claim to it? Obviously that doesn’t mean Palestinians should be murdered, but it does explain why Israel should exist there, even without their consent. Do you also think it was an equally terrible crime for all of the countries who fought for independence from the British empire to become independent too, because Britain had occupied some of them for ages. Or is it only Jews who lost their right to their homeland by being replaced by a long line of occupying forces who somehow became the only rightful owners?

I am anti genocide and I firmly believe that the Israeli government are guilty of war crimes ( as do the Court in Haague). Anti semetic does not mean the inability to criticise the Israeli government in the same way I would criticise my own Irish government. I do not criticise their actions because they are Jewish, I openly criticise them as they are guilty of the most recent genocide of 25,000 Palestinians. COLLECTIVE PUNISHMENT IS A WAR CRIME.

So now you're saying if I was indigenous to let's say Spain but I'm born and brought up in the UK that gives me the right to go back to Spain occupy the land and forcibly remove people from there to make way for myself? That's ridiculous right? I'm sorry but all the Jews who were killed through out world war 1&2 are you telling me they came from Palestine? No right ? They came from Europe, majority Germany/Austria/Poland etc. The indigenous argument is probably what all those in the Israeli army mutters to themselves before they go out on a child murdering spree. You can't argue with a brick wall and you are the Great Wall of China.

the few Palestinians that are left there @NeedAllTheHelpICanGet1 there are nearly 5 million Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank, do you consider that a few?
By your definition would you also consider the whole of the USA and Australia to be massive illegal settlements because the land was taken by force from the indigenous inhabitants, who continue to be oppressed to this day?

@Chicaontour That sounds like an excellent reason to criticise the actions of the Israeli government. It doesn’t seem to explain why that means Israel should not exist. If you think the actions of a government should mean that country can be destroyed, then I wonder if you apply this to all countries or just Jewish ones. And if you’re not suggesting Israel shouldn't exist (hence you are respecting its right to existence) then I think you’re a Zionist by definition.
When you criticise the Irish government’s decisions, do you end the conversation by saying Ireland should just be given back to the British?

And yes 5 million is bladdy well a few. It's not even half the population of London.

@NeedAllTheHelpICanGet1 Compared to the population of Israel?

@TrigTannet this thread will also attract the requisite amount of genocide accusations, blood libel and just bracing for the inevitable Holocaust inversion, because apparently it’s impossible to have a discussion about antisemitism and Zionism without keeping these things first and foremost in a conversation about Jewish rights to self determination and a homeland.

Both Jews and Palestinians have valid indigenous and historical claims to the land.

ETA ding ding! I see I didn’t have to brace for that long.

The establishment of Israel in 1948 was done immorally and unethically. That doesn't mean Jewish people aren't indigenous to Israel, as even Ashkenazi Jews have genetic patriarchal ties to Canaan, despite being "Eastern European". The diaspora of Jewish people is massive due to centuries of persecution and genocide. It is also important to note that Israel does legally exist as an official state (which was offered for Palestine and turned down by Arab leaders). Most of those who live in Israel now were born there. It is their home. Just like Palestine is the home of Palestinians who were born in Palestine.

The thing that most "Zionists" believe is that Israel is the only Jewish state in the entire world and exists purely so that Jewish people can live in a majority free of antisemitism and persecution. Zionism to most people is the idea that the Jewish homeland should exist and has a right to continue to exist. There doesn't need to be any killing of Palestinians. There simply needs to be safety for those in Israel; unfortunately, Hamas' goal is to get rid of Israel as well as Jewish people worldwide (according to many of their leaders).

It isn't right to kick out today's Israelis because in 1948 the British and the Americans designated what was Palestinian land to Jewish people in seek of refuge. Today's Israelis are not to blame for the Palestinians' displacement (save for the West Bank and Jerusalem, which should be immediately given back to the Palestinians). It also isn't right for the Israeli government to occupy Palestine and treat Palestinians as nomads and second-class citizens, simply for being born Palestinian.

I don't think Zionism is evil. I think extremism is. I don't think anti-Zionism is antisemitic, but I do think many antisemitic people use "anti-Zionism" as a cover.

But it's true what they say, one day the oppressed becomes the oppressor. And in this case it's worse than what the nazis did because there is no army to fight back.

@NeedAllTheHelpICanGet1 You don't appear to have any knowledge of what the Nazis did.

I wasn't going to comment on this thread but this racist bile can't stand any more. It needs to end @MNHQ

@NeedAllTheHelpICanGet1 are you honestly trying to claim that the war in Gaza now is worse than the holocaust? If the IDF opened murder factories and killed literally every single Palestinian in the West Bank and Gaza, they still wouldn’t have as many victims as the number of Jews the Nazis killed.

In relation to your post about going to Spain: Of course you cannot go to Spain and steal someone’s home. But that is an entirely different situation so I don’t see how it’s relevant. It’s easier to use the analogy of a car than a house. Imagine I stole your car (I.e. expelled the Jews from the Middle East) and kept it for a while. Then I decide to sell it to someone (today’s Palestinians) who doesn’t know it’s stolen property. Do you still think you own the car, or does the buyer own it now? In UK law the original owner still owns it. Scale that up in terms of size and time and you get Jews going home.

Trying to shrug them off as accusations does not make you right or your argument righteous. Like I said as soon as you bring these completely valid "accusations" to light in front of a supporter they will cry antisemitism. Israel IS committing genocide. Israel IS illegally occupying land. Israel IS committing war crimes. And to answer the OPs question, you can be against the government but not the people. But little minded people will not see that differently. And those very same little minded people are the cause of the violence and hate that's spewed in this awful world because they cannot see or understand things for what they very really truly are. Jews and Palestinians DID live in peace and harmony until they decided to drag them out of the very homes they were given refuge in.

And those very same little minded people are the cause of the violence and hate that's spewed in this awful world because they cannot see or understand things for what they very really truly are.

Clearly.

Jews and Palestinians DID live in peace and harmony until they decided to drag them out of the very homes they were given refuge in.

Ah, you’re one of those historical revisionists.

Unable to formulate an educated argument so resorting to insults already? Very much the refuge of the small minded.

Ah that's right. "Educated". Rich. Very rich.

@NeedAllTheHelpICanGet1 I certainly don’t think Israel is above criticism and I don’t think I’ve said anywhere that I do. However, I don’t think we criticise e.g. the actions of the French government and conclude that criticism by saying that France shouldn’t exist anymore and is an illegitimate state. Why do you suppose it’s different when we criticise Israel?

Also, my cursory knowledge of history suggests that Jews and Muslims did not live peacefully in anywhere in the Middle East, it was just less bloody and awful than Europe so by comparison it looked better. Across different Arab countries and different eras, Jews experienced pogroms and discriminatory legislation, limitations of job fields they could enter, higher taxes etc. If your idea of Jews and Muslims living “peacefully” together requires Jews to submit to a lower legal status and tolerate periodic violence, you must surely be able to see why the Jews don’t agree with you calling it peaceful.

This really doesn’t make any sense at all.

@25milesfromhome If I was being completely cynical, and going by the other posts, it kind of does. IYSWIM.

I don't agree with how the Israeli state has come about. I don't agree with the force and huge loss of life that has come with it at the cost of many many many innocent people. Like I have said I am not against Jews this is not what I've suggested at any point. I am against how the government is targeting and has continued targeting innocent civilians. It's just absolutely not right. On either side not just one or the other. The lack of peaceful living is my main frustration.