Can you be anti-Zionist without being antisemitic?

[TrigTannet]

I’m inclined to think the answer is no, but I’ve seen a lot of people on here recently attempting to say that they’re not antisemitic, they’re just anti-Zionism. I would love to hear someone explain how they imagine that works.

As I understand it, Zionism is a political ideology which says that Jews should have self determination in their homeland. Many minority indigenous peoples want, and have, some level of self determination, from fully sovereign states to devolution or reserves with different laws. The world overwhelmingly supports that. What is the moral argument against self determination for Jews?

It really is very wearing to try and debate with people who twist your words and insist you have said things that you demonstrably haven't

Yup, that and being 'Jewsplained' about what does and doesn't constitute antisemitism. There's been so many threads like this since October that I'm really questioning the OP's motives for starting this one.

Yes, it is possible to be anti-Zionist without being anti-Semitic.

There are 700k settlers in the West Bank that call themselves Zionists and believe that they have the right to take what they call Judea and Samaria because 2000 years ago some of their ancestors may have lived there. They use force to drive out the 2m Palestinians who do live there. These settlements are funded and supported by the Israeli government and if they kill Palestinians, no action is taken. The aim is to change the demographics of the West Bank so that it becomes Jewish.

These West Bank settlers are allowed to vote in the Israeli elections but only if they are Jewish. If they are not Jewish, the West Bank inhabitants have no such right. Similarly, if they are Jewish they can move and live in Israel proper, but Palestinians from the West Bank have no such right.

If Palestinians from the West Bank object to any of this, or seek to defend themselves against being expelled by force from their villages by armed settlers then they are derided as savages, which the Israeli state then uses to justify taking more land.

This is exactly how America was settled - moving in, taking land and then deriding the native Americans as savages if they resisted at all. And then using that as an excuse to take more land and push ever further West.

I totally abhor prejudice against anyone for their religion or ethnicity but I abhor the actions of the West Bank Zionists.

I completely agree etmoi and tbh I'm pretty annoyed at myself for having taken the bait and jumped in on this thread.

On the thread about the South African court case on this board, someone asked why more of what they called the "pro Israel posters" weren't there giving their opinion. Well guess what folks, when you twist people's words, accuse them of supporting genocide and generally jump on everything they say, you will find that they don't really feel like engaging with you.

I’m anti any government, group, movement, or geopolitical ideology that believes butchering one person, let alone 25,000 (and counting), even at the cost of losing hostages, is acceptable.
It is wholly unjustifiable and unacceptable and if you’re down with this and hollering ‘they started it’, then you need to ask yourself why a wholesale slaughter of the innocent rests easy on your conscience.

You might want to look at what happened to the Sudeten Germans, who lost almost everything they owned. Likewise the Jews expelled from the Arab countries.

On the same vein, I haven't seen anyone on here who wants Palestine to be occupied and supports illegal settlements in the West Bank and Jerusalem. People seem to assume that everyone who speaks in the support of Israel continuing to exist (Zionism) are genocidal racists.

Actually I have seen some posters try to argue that Israel may as well keep the land it’s settled on or that Israel was meant to get the West Bank/Gaza anyway, and the Arabs were meant to go to what is now Jordon, or that Palestine never existed so forget about it.

That said I have also seen a lot of pro Israelis criticising the settlers and literally none vouching for Netanyahu.

So you are against Mahmoud Abbas and his party for not condemning the massacre, mass-kidnapping, maiming, raping and mass-displacement of Israelis? I wish more people were brave enough to admit that, it would greatly increase the chances of peace if more people were willing to see both sides.

Oh, I see. You've missed the point of the post. The OP is asking if anti-zionism is always antisemitic. There was no mention of being opposed to Israeli politics, it was about if you can wish for there not to be a Jewish state without being antisemitic. I hope that clears it up for you!

Likewise, I have seen plenty of posts suggesting that Israel shouldn't exist, including on this thread (see: posts about moving the Jewish state to America 😳). It seems Palestinians are more valued than indigenous population of America by some.

@Fussandmisery I can honestly say that I have not seen people defending the Israeli occupation of the West Bank, nor have I seen anyone on here say that Israel should have Gaza. I have distanced myself from the Conflict in the Middle East board though (I usually post under another name on that specific board), as the amount of hatred and antisemitism was really starting to make me feel anxious for my own safety in the UK. So it is possible that those things have been said, I just haven't seen it, certainly not on this thread.

I'd never heard of Sudeten Germans before, so thank you for that. Very interesting. I'm more aware of Jews from Arab countries as I'm one myself. 900 000 displaced Jews and no right to return (at least in the case of Iraq).

@Echobelly I think you said it really well.

Separately, I think what most Palestinians realistically want and most allies want, is a one state solution- equal rights for everyone between the Jordan river and the sea. When people say they are anti-zionist, they are saying ALL people in Israel and Palestine should be treated equally, rather than the Jewish state existing at the expense of Palestine and Palestinians.

If you think arguing for equal rights for all people is anti-Semitic, then I don't know what to tell you.

I personally want everyone in the region to be able to share in the great stuff Israel has to offer. Offering the Palestinian people an escape from poverty enforced on them by Israel would be the best way to defeat Hamas in my opinion, give them a place and a future.

Obviously, it's not that easy and it feels impossible now because Israel has created a new generation of angry and traumatised people which makes it easier for Hamas or their successors up find people to carry out appalling acts like October 7th. You cannot bomb your way to peace.

But Gaza treatment is like what happened in Germany certainly the beginnings of it. It is not antisemitic to call it out and say it's like what happened to Jews. It's just not. It's anti terror on other human beings by one set of human beings.

For the 3rd time it's absolutely not comparable so again, and I hate this expression, educate yourself about 1930s Germany and the Holocaust.

You shut down criticism. By saying antisemitic.

You're doing it again. I haven't seen one person shut you down this way. I do however think you are showing a great deal of ignorance and prejudice. Don't engage with me again @Flyhigher

@Yazzi

"Separately, I think what most Palestinians realistically want and most allies want, is a one state solution- equal rights for everyone between the Jordan river and the sea".

++++

So in short the elimination of the current State of Israel then?

@Echobelly

"Offering the Palestinian people an escape from poverty enforced on them by Israel would be the best way to defeat Hamas in my opinion, give them a place and a future."

++++

I see it as a carrot and stick solution. Absolutely it is essential that ordinary Palestinians are given an alternative of stability and prosperity to destruction and chaos. The best way of achieving this is through an economically successful and politically stable West Bank. Which would include the halting (and in the longer term removal) of West Bank Settlement.

At the same Hamas needs to be removed from power as they openly state their desire to eliminate the State of Israel. This can be achieved by:

1. Force by Israel
2. Voluntarily by Hamas deciding to step down and leave.
3. overthrow by ordinary Gazans

By as you say peace cannot be achieved by bombing and without a prosperous and peaceful alternative all Israel will achieve in Gaza is Hamas 2.0.

You can be against the actions of the Israeli government and the IDF, you can oppose the horrifying bombing of Gaza, you can want the oppression of the Palestinians to stop and an end to illegal settlements in the WB. I am all of these things. You can also be all of these things without appropriating and redefining a specific word with a specific meaning and purpose for a specific minority and using it to formalise and legitimise a movement against that minority and the one country in the world that represents and harbours them.

ETA missing word.

Humdingerydoo: I oppose ALL civilian deaths on both sides. I am for nobody else but the common man- from Israel to Gaza to the world beyond. I hate what is happening. I hate what happened on October the 7th. I don’t think 25,000 (and counting) Palestinian civilian deaths is the solution. My people’s death was once ‘the solution’

My paternal side died in the Nazi death camps, so please… don’t even start painting me as a sympathiser of butchery on ANY side.
If there’s a child dying, that’s our child dying. Simple as that. Poke holes in my heart’s approach, but I stand by my hope for humankind.

Wow there were a lot of replies this morning.
@Yazzi making a 1 state solution is the destruction of Israel though. I’ve only ever heard it suggested by people who don’t understand the politics of the region. Israel is the world’s only Jewish state and it is the only state which is obligated to allow Jewish refugees in if (when) the Christian, Muslim, or other states start threatening or murdering their Jewish citizens. Jews in the UK can safely “tolerate” more threatening behaviour from antisemites here because they have somewhere to escape to if (when) they need. Obviously I wish it wasn’t necessary, but if history has taught us anything it’s that Jews need somewhere to escape to when the majority gets murderous. If you make Israel into another Muslim state with a large Jewish minority, there will be a genocide against the Jews there. A horrifying percentage of Palestinians supported October 7th, many Islamist organisations call for the destruction of the Jews and almost every Muslim state has already ethnically cleansed the Jews. So there’s no doubting what they’d do given the opportunity.

I'm glad we can agree that any deaths are one death too many. I don't think anyone here thinks Palestinian deaths are the solution - that's a horrible thing to imply. A truly awful thought.

The topic at hand is if anti-zionism is always antisemitic, and I guess my point is that you can care about Palestinians and want peace and a two state solution, and want the illegal settlers out of the West Bank and East Jerusalem and still be a Zionist. Being an anti-zionist would mean you want Israel to not exist anymore. That, to me, means you are antisemitic as you don't believe in Jews having the right for self-determination. (To be clear, I don't mean you. I don't know your opinion on Zionism).

Personally, I am a Zionist in that I want (/see the need) for a Jewish state of Israel. I don't agree with illegal settlers and despise Netanyahu and his even more right-wing friends. I'm still a Zionist though. I can, and do, criticise Israel's politics without wanting the destruction of the country. That's not antisemitic. A lot of people are saying they're anti-zionist though, not that they're opposed to Netanyahu. That's a completely different thing.

It is because of what @TrigTannet has said that I do not think a 1-state solution would work.

In an ideal world, yes, both Israelis and Palestinians would live under one nation from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea. They would both democratically elect a unified leader and would live peacefully. I don't think this is realistic.

Israel and Palestine have such different cultures, histories, and religious beliefs. I believe that both are made up of (mostly) good people, but even good people have differences and one elected leader would not suit both parties because of the huge difference in values. Israelis and Palestinians both deserve that representation as well as preserving and celebrating their unique cultures and histories.

Jewish people want and deserve a Jewish state, which is and should remain Israel (Israelis of other religions and cultures are also rightfully accepted). Palestinian people want and deserve a home free of oppression and occupation, which should remain Palestine. Both leaders need to be removed and a two-state solution should be made based on the proposed 1948 borders.

@Humdingerydoo That is exactly my stance.

Absolutely

@TrigTannet saying "there's no doubt that's what they would do" is enormously racist. What you think only white Western people can live with other groups "peacefully" (though other groups would laugh hollowly at that)?

And it's hoped for by people who actually understand the reality on the ground far better than you do, with your shameful "stolen car" metaphor.

In reality Israel had transferred hundreds of thousands of people into west bank settlements all throughout the west bank. Those people will never leave and Israel will never have the capacity to force them. That's the reality.

So the option is either apartheid forever, or a single state.

I challenge anyone who think it isn't apartheid to go visit or live in Palestine (after the horrific war); to experience two parallel roads- one paved, street lit, filled with amenities, and one a dirt track. The first for Israelis and the second for Palestinians.