Can you be anti-Zionist without being antisemitic?

[TrigTannet]

I’m inclined to think the answer is no, but I’ve seen a lot of people on here recently attempting to say that they’re not antisemitic, they’re just anti-Zionism. I would love to hear someone explain how they imagine that works.

As I understand it, Zionism is a political ideology which says that Jews should have self determination in their homeland. Many minority indigenous peoples want, and have, some level of self determination, from fully sovereign states to devolution or reserves with different laws. The world overwhelmingly supports that. What is the moral argument against self determination for Jews?

@1dayatatime do you believe in the modern state of Israel MORE than you believe in equal rights and self determination for Palestinians? All of Israeli "history" and facts on the ground shows there can only be one of these things.

That is what you believe, isn't it. So say it plainly. I challenge you to sit with the actual consequences of your beliefs.

As for me, I am very comfortable saying that yes, the modern state of Israel should not exist in a form where Palestinians are treated as worse than second class citizens. Where my own family members have been extrajudicially killed by Israel, or sit in "administrative detention" now for over a decade with no charges ever being laid (because there are no charges). It's depraved.

I understand that Zionists cannot have capacity to care for Palestinians or have compassion in any real way, because that would need then contending with their existential beliefs. But at least face what YOU are saying- you care more about Israel existing than Palestinians being treated as equal humans, and if you could only choose one, you would choose Israel..

@Yazzi

I actually really respect your honesty in clearly stating your position :

"As for me, I am very comfortable saying that yes, the modern state of Israel should not exist in a form where Palestinians are treated as worse than second class citizens.

Too many people share the same opinion as you but don't have the honesty to stand up and clearly state it.

That said I have a different opinion to yourself believing that the only way to reach a long term solution is to give ordinary Gazans hope and an alternative to Hamas by creating a peaceful, politically stable and economically successful West Bank including the halting of and subsequent removal of settlements.

But I think the only way to properly debate this issue and hopefully reach a solution is by being honest and clear in our views, which you have done.

@1dayatatime I think your vision sounds beautiful and would be the ultimate hope of most Palestinians (and I hope Israelis) but it feels like a fantasy at this stage. That's why for Palestinians it feels like a disingenuous argument as commonly made; like-

"I want a two state solution- a solution that the Israeli government who has been voted into for the past 30 years has made impossible, after an Israeli assassinated the politician who almost brought it to fruition. So it cannot, will not, and has not happened. Without this solution, I'll implicitly agree with status quo rather than Palestinian receiving equal rights. And if Palestinians argue for the only solution that seems like it could physically give them right- a distant chance but more realistic than two states- and non-Palestinians support this- I'll call them anti-Semitic."

No because being anti a jew state is being anti Jewish people. Why is OK to be anti zionist but not being anti Britain, anti France anti Spain etc?

Jewish people deserve a country to feel safe with no fear of being prosecuted as it happenedin the past in Russia, Germany ..

I posted earlier wondering if the Jews and Palestinians are related due to coming from the same area, sharing similar traditions and even, I think, looking alike. Seems they are related.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Palestinians#:~:text=Some%20claim%20Jewish%20or%20Samaritan,and%20Arab%2Dspeaking%20Levantine%20groups.

Can you be anti-Zionist without being antisemitic?

For those people who say you can I’ve got a few simple questions for you. What’s the word for someone who’s against the existence of the country of Kosovo? Or Australia? Or Russia?

Yep - we don’t have words for these for the very simple reason people do not feel the need to argue against their very existence.

And I’ve picked those countries for a reason. Kosovo is a relatively newly established country. Russia is widely agreed to be an aggressive warmongerer. And Australia is a country borne of colonialism. People have used some or all of these points to argue against Israel’s existence.

Yet no one seriously thinks Russia, or Australia, simply shouldn’t exist. Yes, people disagree with these countries governments, policies etc, but it would seem bizarre to argue that Russia or Australia shouldn’t exist.

Israel seems to be the only country where there’s a word in common usage which has the definition of wanting the destruction of the country. Why is that?

@TheLonelyStarbucksLovers can you really be that naive?

It's because none of those countries exist because of the explicit, brutal ongoing oppression of an existing and long standing population which they seek to replace.

The closest of those states you named to the above description is Australia, and Australia is hugely racist and oppressive to Indigenous people and Indigenous people lead the fight to some kind of justice- eg through treaty, land rights etc.

Russia is also a deeply repressive state. Their invasion of Ukraine is opposed by basically everyone. Many people believe that Russia as a state should not be led as it is, and I am pretty sure everyone would agree that all minority groups in land ruled by Russia should have equal rights as everyone else. The same as we are arguing with Israel.

Why do people oppose Zionism? Because in Palestine it always has and always will mean oppression.

I cannot tell you how surreal it is to argue about whether it's anti Semitic to be opposed to Israel one day after a friends aunt and her children were gunned down by a drone with a gun in a refugee camp in Gaza, while trying to get food.

@Yazzi But there is a huge difference between arguing or protesting against a country’s policies and government (which isn’t anti Zionist if it’s Israel you’re talking about) and saying that country shouldn’t exist at all (which obviously is anti Zionist). There’s a hell of a lot of Israel’s policies that I’m deeply against.

No one across the world is saying Russia or Australia shouldn’t exist. That wouldn’t be seen as legitimate. Yet it’s seen as legitimate by some to call for the destruction of Israel.

@TheLonelyStarbucksLovers anti Zionist people (including me) are saying Israel should not exist IN ITS CURRENT FORM.

We are not saying Israelis should leave. Should not speak Hebrew. Should not have Jewish public holidays. Should not be called "Israeli" even (Bosnians for example do not generally call themselves Bosnian-Herzegovinian, despite that being their state).

We are saying the state that exists should encompass the rights and and dignity of all the people who live within it. We are not asking for "less", we are asking for "more".

You can say that's delusional if you like. You can say it could never work. We say- two states is more delusional. Two states has even less chance of working. It sounds nice, but where would the extra 700,000 thousand Israelis- 10% of the Israeli population- who live in West bank settlements go, exactly?

You can say Palestinians would brutalise Israelis. We would say it's racist to assume a people are barbaric by nature. We would say it's a bitterly ironic argument given the ACTUAL brutal oppression that Israelis enact on Palestinians.

You can say life will be harder and more dangerous for Israelis as a country transitions from one form to another. This is very likely- look at South Africa. But do you think Apartheid should have been maintained instead?

Even if you disagree with the above argument, that's your prerogative. But to call it anti Semitism is lazy and disingenuous.

@Yazzi

"@1dayatatime I think your vision sounds beautiful and would be the ultimate hope of most Palestinians (and I hope Israelis) but it feels like a fantasy at this stage."

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Perhaps you are right that my vision is naive and fantasy. There is certainly no shortage of naivety from posters from all sides with little understanding of the history and depth of anger from both sides and who think that the whole issue could be resolved if maybe the Israelis and Palestinians could sit down over tea and cake, sang a few songs together and talked it through.

There is also of arrogance about wishing to impose western values of secularism and democracy upon other countries when maybe just maybe they have their own culture, history and traditions and don't want western values. I mean it didn't turn out too well for the ordinary citizens of Iraq or Libya.

Most citizens of most countries just want stability, peace and economic prosperity, so whilst Gadaffi or Saddam Hussein were thoroughly unpleasant characters. I believe ordinary Libyans or Iraqis would have preferred them to the civil war, death and destruction that followed.

Meanwhile the majority of citizens (and I stress majority) of say Saudi or China that have resisted western values of secularism, democracy and freedom of speech seem to be doing just fine.

anti Zionist people (including me) are saying Israel should not exist IN ITS CURRENT FORM.

And its current form is a Jewish state. That has to be the unequivocal starting point of a state of Israel. Yes, it should show tolerance, be multicultural etc, but these can only come about when a predominantly Jewish state is allowed to exist peacefully.

And as for your comments on a one state solution. It’s a lovely dream - “let’s all live together and be friends”. The reality would be a genocidal bloodbath that would lead to women and children on both sides bearing the brunt of the conflict. Anyone who knows anything about the region, from the centre-left to the crntre-right, acknowledges that a two-state solution is the only workable way forward. The question is how to get there.

@TheLonelyStarbucksLovers

"Anyone who knows anything about the region, from the centre-left to the crntre-right, acknowledges that a two-state solution is the only workable way forward. The question is how to get there."

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Well a good starting point would be both sides being prepared to accept a two state solution which is currently not the case.

And whilst the West may see a two state solution as the only workable way forward Hamas and the Israeli Government certainly do not, preferring the destruction of each other.

@1dayatatime you might find this interesting.
I don't know what methodology was used for the surveys and how representative it really is, but it seems that on both sides the majority currently might not want a two state solution.
The current status quo has caused nothing but grief and endless violence either, so it circles back to what happens next as surely this can't continue

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-what-is-a-two-state-solution-and-do-israelis-and-palestinians-want-one#:~:text=Those%20results%20found%20that%2035,repeated%20his%20desire%20for%20one.

But, I don't know how these views might change after the war

And I suppose it also depends on what each survey was presenting as two states and proposed borders for people to vote on, but interesting insight nonetheless

Certainly don't want to add to any bad feelings anywhere.
I do want all parties to grow and be safe and happy. Sorry if I've upset anyone.
Everyone deserves a place they feel safe. Jews have suffered. Just am very sad at the moment for Gaza. This conflict has raged my whole life.
Really want it to end. Hope an amazing set of leaders arise on both sides and find a way forward.

@Parkingt111

Thanks that was an interesting link.

Whilst I am in doubt that the majority of Governments and people in the West (including myself) would support a two state solution that doesn't necessarily mean that ordinary Palestinians or Israelis would support a two state solution.

What's more the West trying to impose such a solution against both parties will is somewhat arrogant, patronising and highly unlikely to succeed.

Coming back to your point:

"The current status quo has caused nothing but grief and endless violence either, so it circles back to what happens next as surely this can't continue ".

I still think that the average person values stability, peace and economic prosperity over more emotion driven ideals such as sovereignty or democracy etc. Which brings me back to my view that ordinary Gazans need to see a better alternative and need to see hope. To do this the West Bank must be made to work as stable and prosperous and ordinary West Bank Palestinians need to get behind this as well and not simply go through life as victims.

Because if that fails then the only other solution is "last man standing".

@Yazzi I know you didn’t address this to me, but I’m going to reply to it: do you believe in the modern state of Israel MORE than you believe in equal rights and self determination for Palestinians? All of Israeli "history" and facts on the ground shows there can only be one of these things.

I suppose if it has to be a choice between the two then I would choose Israel, yes. I think it’s an awful decision to make and I desperately hope that a solution can be found which works for everyone. But, if the choice is a 1 state solution (and therefore almost 100% certainly a genocide against the Jews) or the status quo then I choose the status quo as the lesser of 2 evils. The world needs a Jewish state.

I think it’s tragic that the other Muslim nations won’t take Palestinian refugees in. I recently learned that Chile took lots and lots of Christian Palestinians and they are now fully settled Chileans living peacefully and happily. If only the Muslim Palestinians had been given the same opportunity 75 years ago then we wouldn’t still be looking at such an awful situation. Plenty of peoples were and are moved around the world against their will (plenty in Europe and also the Jews of Arab nations who have already been discussed here) so I don’t think it would uniquely traumatising for the Palestinians to move to Jordan or Egypt or any other country.

@Yazzi sorry if you explained it somewhere earlier in the thread, but what is the solution you see as more viable than two states?
It sounds like some kind of unification?

If you don't mind:
How different is the real life between average Israeli and West bank/Gazan Palestinian?
On a very rough scale, like Western/Eastern Germany or North/South Korea?

I am in central Europe, so my viewpoint is inevitably influenced a lot by Holocaust, Sudeten, issues with re-union of Germany, splitting of Czechoslovakia, or Balkan wars.
For my region, splitting countries worked better than keeping them together as multi ethnic states - and than we all met in the EU which overcomes the disadvantages of splitting and makes unresolved disputes irrelevant. However, there is little chance to have some local union of Egypt+Israel+Jordan+Lebanon, so our solution don't have to work for you.

(Of course it's not your duty to educate me, thought if you participate in this kind of discussions from time to time and maybe have some favourite links, it would be great).

Why should Palestinian people have to move elsewhere, though?? It is their country. Plenty have said that they do not want to leave. Israel need to stop occupying and taking land. (Also stop their genocidal acts also, obviously.)

It has been very clear, even without the Israeli government discussing what their plans to do with Palestine are.

@TrigTannet

On what grounds do you build your faith in the Palestinians deciding to go against all of their history and culture and deciding not to murder the Jews as soon as they have the opportunity.

On the grounds that my family aren't murderers. On the grounds that relatives and thousands of Palestinians work in Israel every single day without murdering 🙄 Israelis.

Your hysterical delusions support a genocide happening, right now.

Plenty of peoples were and are moved around the world against their will (plenty in Europe and also the Jews of Arab nations who have already been discussed here) so I don’t think it would uniquely traumatising for the Palestinians to move to Jordan or Egypt or any other country.

This is ethnic cleansing. You are openly supporting ethnic cleansing. Yet you think you have the moral high ground. I would reflect on the things your support of Israel have you arguing for, if I were you. Personally I am thankful that my beliefs never have me arguing in support of genocide, and explicitly for ethnic cleansing.

@ZiriForGood thanks for your kindly phrased request. I am really sorry but given the above I can't come back to this thread it's too weird watching my Palestinian children play as people argue that people like them should should be made refugees for Israel to exist. Generally I resonate with the writing of Mustafa Barghouti- here's a short article but he's written books too: https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/may/15/nakba-democratic-society-palestinians-mustafa-barghouti

Lots of perfectly normal Jewish people are anti zionist without being antisemitic. It’s not just an extremist minority though that’s the example that was shared earlier on this thread.
In real life, many of the more liberal / left leaning Jewish people I know are somewhat to strongly anti zionist.

@BackandForthRoundandRound I didn’t mean to imply that I think the Palestinians should have to move. I don’t think the other minorities who were relocated at the same time should have been forced to either. I don’t know if the Chileans with Christian Palestinian heritage moved because they were forced or by choice. I’m simply saying it’s a shame everyone wasn’t given the same opportunity. There are 6 million people with Palestinian heritage living in other countries and I’m sure most of them have safer lives with more opportunities that the overwhelming majority of those who live in the West Bank and Gaza. So many minority groups were relocated in that era and I don’t think there’s any reason to assume it would have been uniquely worse for Palestinians than any of the other groups who experienced it, and they’re mostly fine now.

Incidentally, didn’t the court literally just tell Israel to make sure they don’t commit genocide in future, ie acknowledge that they’re not committing genocide now. War is awful and tragic but war =/= genocide. It undermines the meaning of the word genocide in situations like Rwanda or the Holocaust when you misuse it in non-genocide situations.

You really think a large proportion of Jewish people want to dismantle the Jewish state?