Can you be anti-Zionist without being antisemitic?

[TrigTannet]

I’m inclined to think the answer is no, but I’ve seen a lot of people on here recently attempting to say that they’re not antisemitic, they’re just anti-Zionism. I would love to hear someone explain how they imagine that works.

As I understand it, Zionism is a political ideology which says that Jews should have self determination in their homeland. Many minority indigenous peoples want, and have, some level of self determination, from fully sovereign states to devolution or reserves with different laws. The world overwhelmingly supports that. What is the moral argument against self determination for Jews?

@revsersalenergy There are plenty of women who argued against women getting the vote. It wouldn't surprise me to hear that there are plenty of Jews who argue against the existence of Israel. I would assume that the majority of them live in tolerant western countries and maybe they’re reevaluating since the massive increase in antisemitism in the west. Humans aren’t innately rational.

@Yazzi you have literally dismissed the very real threat of genocide against the Jews at the hands of the Palestinians with “well I don’t think my family would do it”. Any yet you somehow think that’s ok or at least a reasonable risk to take. How is anything I’ve said worse?

A horrifying proportion of Gazans supported Hamas’s terrorist attack on October 7th. I’ve seen data which suggests as high as 75%. Hamas’s charter states that they want to destroy the Jews. They have said several times that they will commit more atrocities like October 7th as soon as they can. They are still holding hostages. That is not a group of people who can be trusted not to commit genocidal attacks again at literally every opportunity. I’m not saying your family would join in. You can certainly judge that much better than I ever could. But to assume that your family could control the majority of Palestinians (including the religious and political leadership) seems a little implausible. You haven’t given any evidence to support your beliefs, and I’ve given you the repeated history of every Muslim country with a Jewish minority and the actions of the modern day Palestinians to justify mine. Again, I’m sure you and your family are lovely, but equally I’m sure the majority would not be. Israelis shouldn’t have to risk their lives on “Yazzi thinks it would be fine against all evidence to the contrary”.

I am well aware of what the court stated as I made sure to watch the live stream of it.

It is genocide.

You are well aware of the manner in which you spoke especially considering your other posts here. Israel needs to stop occupying and to stop their deliberate dehumanising actual human beings. Their propaganda machine installs that from childhood and it is extremely disturbing.

It is not their land to be on. There would be uproar if anyone on here dared to suggest that Israelis should be moved elsewhere so I would suggest thinking before saying the same about people who are being murdered simply for being Palestinian.

As for what you have stated about people supporting the date in October, looking at it properly, I think mostly anyone who has had countless family members murdered, imprisoned on false/nonexistent charges, beaten, tortured, the list goes on would not be very sympathetic to something happening to their oppressor.

Particularly when it has been going on for the number of years which it has been. It didn't all suddenly begin in October. Or that year.

I'm sure you're aware that the iOf have been taking hostages for countless years? Taken away and not seen or heard from again. Some are eventually returned after being regularly beaten, starved etc. Men and women. Children have also been taken.

Just to answer the main question of the thread. Are there not rather a lot of Orthodox Jews that believe there shouldn’t be a homeland or go to it until the messiah comes to earth. And in their view that hasn’t happened yet. So theoretically no Israel should exist currently. Maybe my understanding is wrong, I have not looked into this specific view but I have read it multiple times.

and on your whole you would rather have Palestinians be forcibly removed from their own land to facilitate a Jewish state, or it be an apartheid state. Rather than have Palestinians be safe on their own land. Hamas and the Israeli government are the main issues. The Israeli government is committing a genocide and also trying to ethnically cleanse the Palestinian land. Have you not heard of all the plans the Israeli government has for Gaza, luxury apartments, hotels, beach resorts. And that’s not even mentioning the oil fields off the coast. This has always been the main goal, not destroying Hamas, to eliminate Palestinians. The West Bank has no Hamas but have you seen what they’re doing there. If the goal was to destroy Hamas they wouldn’t be attacking the West Bank. There was something else I wanted to write but it’s late and I’ve forgotten.

@BackandForthRoundandRound

I am well aware of what the court stated as I made sure to watch the live stream of it. It is genocide.

That’s an interesting interpretation. My understanding is that they said Israel must “take measures to ensure a genocide does not take place”, which is kind of meaningless because Israel is signatory to the Genocide Convention, so it already has that obligation. The court order means that there is not a genocide now and that the status quo (of not having a genocide) should be maintained. I think this can be more accurately summarised as “this is not a genocide.”

You are well aware of the manner in which you spoke especially considering your other posts here. Israel needs to stop occupying and to stop their deliberate dehumanising actual human beings. Their propaganda machine installs that from childhood and it is extremely disturbing.

I don’t think anything I said was unreasonable. There is dehumanisation happening on both sides. There is also propaganda on both sides. Hamas runs a terrorist summer camp for children! That isn’t a one-sided issue and there won’t be a one-sided solution.

It is not their land to be on. There would be uproar if anyone on here dared to suggest that Israelis should be moved elsewhere so I would suggest thinking before saying the same about people who are being murdered simply for being Palestinian.

As I explained in detail in another post, that’s not what I said.
No one is being murdered for being Palestinian. Isreal is at war with Hamas and Hamas hides amongst the civilian population. Why is your anger targeted at Israel (who is legitimately and legally at war) not Hamas (who is unconscionably and illegally hiding amongst civilians)? Perhaps that’s something for you to think about.
It’s not clear from your post which land specifically you’re talking about. I hope you’re talking about the settlements (in which case I’d agree) but I’m not certain you’re not talking about the entire state of Israel.

Oh yeah it was about the hostages. The IDF shot dead three of the hostages who were waving a white flag, they shot and killed people waving a white flag, not to mention the fact that they were Israeli. It’s just unbelievable.

israel has planted bags of food, and then when desperate Palestinians go to get it, they shoot them. Desperate starving innocent people trying to get food.

on the whole shooting people who are holding white flags, the IDF have killed so many people with white flags, going for food, trying to escape, go south like they were told.

theyre forcing people south, into supposedly safe areas, and then they flatten buildings and tents and hospitals and schools. How is this vaguely acceptable to anyone. Let alone people that have family that have experienced a genocide themselves. By this I don’t mean the average Israeli, I mean the government.

also while I’m mentioning hostages. Israel have consistently captured Palestinians, for either no crime or very minor things. Then held them for years without trial or even sometimes a charge. They beat them brutally, starve them, torture them. Often children. This should not be acceptable in this day and age. This treatment should not be acceptable for actual criminals, let alone children, or other people with no charge, no trial.

the IDF have shot dead multiple disabled people for, well, no reason, or minor things. What is acceptable about that.

why is Israel allowed to act like this with no consequence.

@TrigTannet to be clear the court found that it is plausible that Israel is committing genocidal acts. This is the threshold question which allowed it to make orders at all. The court could not decide that Israel IS committing genocide- that's another process (for which this decision has opened the door). Instead the court could have decided it was not plausible that Israel had genocidal intent (as Israel strongly argued in their submissions) or is plausible. Despite Israel's arguments, which you have echoed here in "Hamas hides in civilians so it's fine to kill them as it's worth it as they're only Palestinians", the court found against them.

As for you saying I should provide "evidence" that Palestinians are not barbaric murderers en masse. What a racist and miserable position. If I said "Israelis would all murder Palestinians if they got the chance so Palestinians need to be kept safe from them", then I am certain you would call me anti-Semitic.

Your hysteria and distrust mean that beautiful wonderful and innocent people are dying right now in their tens of thousands. It's chilling to see you excuse it.

Whatever you think of Rachel Riley (and frankly I don't care) these words are spot on.

https://twitter.com/RachelRileyRR/status/1751218232906616858

"Today is Holocaust Memorial Day, where we remember the 6 million Jewish men, women and children, the thousands of Roma and Sinti, black, gay, disabled and other groups, systematically murdered in the Holocaust, as well as in subsequent genocides in Rwanda, Bosnia, Cambodia and Darfur, where people were persecuted and killed in masses, with the purposeful intent of their total annihilation.

Currently in China, between 1-3 million Uyghur Muslims are in concentration camps, in the first genocide recognised by the British government while it is happening.

27th January is the date chosen to mark this, as the date of the liberation of Auschwitz, a death camp where Jews had to pay for their own travel in cattle trucks for days, from as far as Greece and Norway, to Poland to be killed. Approx 1.1m people were murdered there alone.

This morning, I’ve already seen Holocaust charities, messages from survivors, and mourners, trolled online in their pain and remembrance, with taunts of being ‘the new nazis’ and cries of ‘genocide’ in Gaza.

Let me be clear, the humanitarian disaster in Gaza is awful. The loss of innocent civilian life is devastating, and every decent person wants an end to the suffering of innocent people, whoever they are and wherever they come from, as soon as possible. But however much pain this situation is causing, it is not genocide, and it is not comparable to the Holocaust.

This is a new form of Holocaust denial, which distorts the nature of genocide, and minimises the intentional dehumanisation, planning and scale of evil it takes to reduce individuals to members of an group deserving of mass torture and killing.

War is horrific by nature, and the pain and suffering it causes I hope never to experience myself, or for my family, and I can’t claim to know how that feels. I empathise with all those suffering due to the accident of where they were born in the world, in the hands of violent and extremist regimes.

In other conflicts, just in and around that region, 377,000+ Yemenis, 236,000+ Afghans, 5,400,000+ Congolese, 500,000+ Sudanese, 500,000+ Syrians, 500,000+ Somalis, 300,000+ Iraqis, 50,000+ Libyans have been killed. None were labelled genocides, none were compared to the Holocaust, perpetrators weren’t called nazis. These victims are barely spoken of.

This call of genocide is saved for Jews, and for Israel alone, because of the pain this accusation specifically causes them. It has been shouted maliciously for decades, yet is particularly painful in the wake of the Oct 7th pogrom, with 136 hostages still captive, and nearly 1,300 brutally murdered in cruel and celebratory style, in the single biggest loss of Jewish life since the Holocaust.

Latest Hamas figures say around 24,000 have been killed in Gaza. Israel says 9,000 are combatants. Reducing this to a numbers game is uncomfortable when it comes to the suffering of real people, and I repeat, every innocent death - every innocent man, woman and child suffering is a tragedy. But ignoring or inverting the truth of the situation and its cause, does nothing to help those suffering now, and will only encourage other rogue groups around the world to do the same in the future, should it be globally sanctioned or ignored.

Hamas has designed and planned for this style of war, spending years and stealing literally billions of aid money to protect its terrorist organisation and weaponry by building tunnels up to twice the length of the London Underground system underneath hospitals, schools, mosques and civilian infrastructure with its specific aim of using human shields to protect itself after provoking its neighbours.

Genocidal antisemitism whether from the nazis or Hamas, brings only death and destruction to both Jews, and those under living under these regimes. For the sake of everyone wanting only to raise their families, have careers, build, move forward and live, this needs to be acknowledged and tackled by all of us."

“I’m sure it’s uncomfortable to admit to yourself that you support (or come from - I’m not sure from your posts) a group hell bent on genocide, but quite simply it would be insanity to trust the Palestinians in a 1 state country.”

@TrigTannet your posts are not only condescending but deeply offensive.

Yeah. I’d rather listen to the views of an actual Holocaust survivor. Here is Hajo Meyer (RIP). German physicist and Holocaust survivor talking about his experience and how Zionists have no right to use the Holocaust for any purpose because “they have given up everything which has to do with humanity and with empathy”.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C2nrOgOIfqN/?igsh=MXQwdDMyZ3lwNmY4OQ==

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HajoMeyer

i'll just say i'm anti israeli government....and all the other governments that have supported their mass expulsions and genocides

m.youtube.com/watch?si=HpK_tAw0Pb21pFhO&v=YVmCwhFk6Pc&feature=youtu.be

Here is holocaust survivor Hajo Meyer explaining why he is anti Zionist. I don't think you can call him antisemitic so I guess it is possible to be anti Zionist without being anti semitic.

Snap! Just posted this same interview :)
I’m sure people will be on here soon enough to try and discredit his views but the reality - as unpalatable as it may be to some on here - is that there are many Jewish people who are also anti Zionist. Their views and those of non Jewish anti Zionists, are just as legitimate and cannot be merely dismissed as “antisemitic”.

and minimises the intentional dehumanisation, planning and scale of evil it takes to reduce individuals to members of an group deserving of mass torture and killing.

I don’t have much respect for Riley. In fact she’s said some quite antisemitism things herself. That aside that piece is fine but I really take issue with the above. This is exactly what the Israeli government are doing to the Palestinian people. Dehumanising them. Collective punishment, mass tourture and killing. Members of the government have literally said as much. They are not even trying to hide it. The justification being they all support Hamas (seen it on this thread). When would they have been surveyed since the oct 7th attacks? Whilst they were being bombed to smithereens or running for their lives? Given that they are living under a violent regime and most of them are children I just don’t know how anyone can use ‘they are all mad murderous psychos who want to kill us’ as justification as that is the exact definition of reducing individuals to a group deserving of mass torture and killing. And we’ve heard it direct from the horses mouth.

@Grandmasswag

To be fair I think it would fair to say that a high proportion of both Israelis and Palestinians see each other with the view that "‘they are all mad murderous psychos who want to kill us’ .

As I see it there are three options:

1. Establishment of a two state solution which although is popular with Western Governments is not supported by either ordinary Palestinians or Israelis.

2. getting rid of the State of Israel and replacing it with a Greater State of Palestine - existing Jewish population may or may not be expelled, killed or live in peace (no one can be sure about this).

3. getting rid of the Palestinian State and replacing it with a Greater State of Israel - existing Palestinian population may or may not be expelled, killed or live in peace (no one can be sure about this).

Clearly the average Palestinian would prefer Option 2 over Option 3 and vice versa for the average Israeli.

I've been on here long enough, as have you, for you to know that I'm Jewish so throwing videos of Holocaust survivors' views my way is offensive (at best).

And you honestly think I haven't heard of Hajo Meyer? I wonder if you're aware though that he's used at every opportunity by the far left as some kind of gotcha to support their own antisemitic views.

Just touching on the debate between @Yazzi and @TrigTannet, I think the idea of Palestinians being effectively evicted if a one-state solution happens in Israel's name, or the removal of Israelis if a one-state solution happens in Palestine's name is a big part of why I don't support a "unified" state. There would invariably be a large group of innocent people unable to stay in their homeland, amongst their people, and with equal rights. And I do truly believe that both groups deserve a safe state that celebrates their cultures, ways of life, and histories, and that neither should be forced to conform or leave.

I do think Israel should continue to exist, which I suppose makes me a Zionist. I don't believe that it needs to exist at the cost of Palestinians, nor do I believe the current Israeli government is remotely suitable for leadership. No Palestinians should be oppressed, starved, or murdered. I also believe that Palestine has a right to exist, but there is no word for that. I don't believe that the only way for Palestine to exist is by having Hamas as leaders who intend to rape, torture, and slaughter Israelis and Jewish people worldwide.

I do value the opinions of those who would support a one-state unified solution. I just don't think it's viable.

The title of the thread is can you be anti Zionist without being anti semitic.

I am not “throwing” anything your way. You posted the opinion of someone within the Jewish community - who is referencing the Holocaust- and I therefore posted an opposing view from someone who survived the Holocaust, to demonstrate that there isn’t consensus within the Jewish community itself on the issue of Zionism.

The point was to contribute to the discussion on the question posed by the thread. It wasn’t about you. If you’re not prepared to have an open discussion on this issue where various points of view can be exchanged and discussed reasonably then perhaps don’t engage in the thread.

It’s not racist to say a 1 state solution would have dire consequences for Jews. There are a lot of Palestinians and they have more children more quickly, so the Jews would very soon become a minority. Jews have never lived safely as a minority with equal rights in a Muslim nation. There were some periods of relative stability in some countries at some points in history, but they were only achieved because the Jewish population submitted to being 2nd class citizens and the Muslim majority weren’t feeling murderous at the time. Religious leaders in Palestine worked with the Nazis to try to kill all of the Jews before the modern state of Israel was established. The current Palestinian leadership (and a horrifying proportion of the normal people) want to kill all of the Jews in the world. On what grounds do you build your faith in the Palestinians deciding to go against all of their history and culture and deciding not to murder the Jews as soon as they have the opportunity. They do a pretty good job of it now without and political or military power! I’m sure it’s uncomfortable to admit to yourself that you support (or come from - I’m not sure from your posts) a group hell bent on genocide, but quite simply it would be insanity to trust the Palestinians in a 1 state country.

So you’re not racist youI just think Palestinians breed like rabbits, make other ethnicity’s live like second class citizens (tho it’s fine when Israel does it 🤷‍♀️), are all would be murderers/nazi sympathisers, and want to kill all the Jews in the world. Well thanks for clearing that up.

A horrifying proportion of Gazans supported Hamas’s terrorist attack on October 7th. I’ve seen data which suggests as high as 75%.

Link?

Can't find anything to disagree with here.

I find your post very offensive on so many levels. It reeks of islamophobia, is historically inaccurate and frankly infers the Jewish people are superior to the Muslims people.
If I had the time, I would counter argue every point you made but I am off to work.

Absolutely yes. Judaism and it's more spiritual teachings have nothing to do with zionism.