Can you be anti-Zionist without being antisemitic?

[TrigTannet]

I’m inclined to think the answer is no, but I’ve seen a lot of people on here recently attempting to say that they’re not antisemitic, they’re just anti-Zionism. I would love to hear someone explain how they imagine that works.

As I understand it, Zionism is a political ideology which says that Jews should have self determination in their homeland. Many minority indigenous peoples want, and have, some level of self determination, from fully sovereign states to devolution or reserves with different laws. The world overwhelmingly supports that. What is the moral argument against self determination for Jews?

You say education, I say brainwashing. The lines can get very blurred.

You're not brainwashed if you want peace. You're brainwashed if you're putting up an argument for war to continue.

@NeedAllTheHelpICanGet1 Ah, you’re one of those do your own research, MSM is lying to you people.
It really is ok for you to take some time out from here and come back when you’re a bit more educated on the subject. There’s a lot of information out there, but some of it is a bit more complicated than those catchy little infographics or 30 second Tiktoks so I understand it can be challenging.

Yes of course you can be Anti-Zionist and not Anti-semitic. How scary and dangerous, this recent attempt to conflate the two in order to deflect any attempt at criticism of Israel, an ethno-state that practices apartheid.

Zionism means different things to different people. Your articulation of Zionism @TrigTannet just meaning a homeland for Jewish people who have the right to self determination is a very basic one, which I believe most people would not oppose, particularly given the persecution faced by Jewish people over thousands of years, particularly in Europe.

The current form of Zionism, which has given us the state of Israel, is a form of racism in my view. People may disagree but that is a legitimate and protected political belief. It does not mean I hold any hatred towards Jewish people, their religion, culture, or Jews as an ethnic group. This view is also shared by others including some Jewish people and it should not be dismissed as anti semitic just because there are those who wish to try and censor criticism of Israel.

If you are genuinely interested in this topic, I would strongly suggest you watch the film “Israelism” , a film by Jewish Americans, to see what modern day Zionism means and how has been used to justify the oppression of another people, who also have the right to self determination and their own homeland.

https://www.israelismfilm.com/

you can rent it for a nominal amount

https://kinema.com/events/israelism-worldwide-rental-tdqdt3

I would imagine most people who say they’re anti-Zionist actually mean they are anti-occupation/settler rather than Israel shouldn’t exist. I haven’t seen anyone on this forum arguing in favour of the latter?

On the same vein, I haven't seen anyone on here who wants Palestine to be occupied and supports illegal settlements in the West Bank and Jerusalem. People seem to assume that everyone who speaks in the support of Israel continuing to exist (Zionism) are genocidal racists.

Both Jews and Palestinians have valid indigenous and historical claims to the land.

Jews were expelled from Israel 2000 years ago! Most people have no issue with the idea of Jewish state and right to self determination. But to claim that they have the right to chuck the Palestinians off en masse and settle the land with European and American Jews is quite frankly nuts and I can see no justification for that. Imagine if all the Americans with Irish ancestry from 200 years ago decided they wanted to return to their family seats/farms/estates/houses and just chucked the inhabitants out violently. People would rightly think they were gaga. That’s what Israel have done. Except it’s even more gaga because those people have had no claim to anything for 2000 years, not 200.

I am a Muslim, who is hundred percent against what the IDF is still doing now. I believe they needed to respond to Hamas, but this constant killing and displacement of innocent Palestinians is unforgivable.

But this comment But it's true what they say, one day the oppressed becomes the oppressor. And in this case it's worse than what the nazis did because there is no army to fight back is also unacceptable in my eyes. We must never ever minimise what happened in the holocaust to minorities and millions of Jewish people. It was horrific and should never be used in an argument like this. The Nazis’ actions were truly some of the worst humankind has ever done. It makes me sick to see people using the actions of Nazis as an argument against Israel or Jewish people today.

This is simply not true. Yes, many Israelis are the descendants of European Jews (ask yourself why). But MORE Israelis are the descendants of Middle Eastern Jews.

It's one thing to disagree with the premise of the OP (although personally I think it is very difficult to argue that anti-Zionism is not antisemitic without distorting or wilfully misunderstanding the definition of Zionism). However, it's quite another to post misinformation and lies to back up your argument.

It's fine to hate the actions of the Israeli government. I do too, although I imagine I view things in a less black-and-white way than some of its critics on MN. But if you start arguing that Israel has no right to exist - which is the very definition of ant-Zionism -then I'm afraid you are an antisemite.

Jewish people originate from all over the world. Why do you want them to all live in one place?

Being against carpet bombing hospitals is now anti semetic

Absolutely love how some non-Jews on here turn up like clockwork to every one of these threads to tell everyone, including actual Jews, what (they think) is and isn't anti-Zionism and antisemitism. It would be funny if it wasn't causing so much harm.

Many countries commit atrocities. I am Australian. There is a history of atrocities perpetrated against the Indigenous Australians, and more recently, also against people attempting to claim asylum in Australia.

But there is no call for Australia not to exist.

Holding Israel (a Jewish nation) to a different standard to other nations is, by definition, antisemitic.

@HardcoreLadyType "always was, always will be" ring a bell?

OP your summary of history is breathtaking in its ignorance. I have lived in Palestine and many of my family still live there. I find it sickening that you can describe ethnic cleansing, which objectively DID occur at the nakba, in 1967, and again today, as "returning a stolen car." Your lack of humanity is staggering.

I suppose in order to align yourself in sympathy with a genocidal state it is necessary to stay blind from the reality of the horrors inflicted by Israel from the day of its creation until today.

@headstone A great idea in principle, but both North and South America were already inhabited by indigenous populations. So you'd be turfing them out by putting Israel there, which is the exact same problem. There are also no ties to that land for Jewish people, most of whose families originate in the Middle East. Only 30% of Israeli Jewish people are of Ashkenazi descent; the majority are Mizrahi. There were already Jewish people living in what is now called Israel before 1948. All of the origins of Judaism and holy sites are in Israel, then Canaan.

I think Israel is scrutinised more than any other country and is a cause celebre when so many other terrible regimes are excused and ignored.
Do their opponents just have very good pr and louder voices?

So many atrocities perpetuated on them, various hijackers have singled them out for death, in Munich their Olympians were slaughtered, a few months ago they were subject to unimaginable horror which was celebrated openly in many western countries. Just a few examples where being Israeli or Jewish is a death sentence.

I cannot answer the op with a yes or no, you are equating Zionism with extremism but many Jewish people equate it with safety from persecution.

MooseBreath, the original Palestinian population, Muslims, Jews etc should have remained in historic Palestine and migrants from other parts of the world set up a state in America, which by 1947 was already a country made up of migrants and no longer a country run by indigenous people.
However that didn’t happen and we are now left with the awful reality of current ‘Zionism’ with the only peaceful solution which is two states thrown out.

@quantumbutterfly do the 2 million in Gaza equate it with freedom from persecution? Including a million under 18. And 50% unemployed.

I refer you to my first paragraph.
Having read (god help me) too many of these threads and followed the links down various rabbit holes, my stance hasn't changed.

Wow. Holocaust Memorial Day and Jews are being openly told they should have moved to America instead of Israel aka Zion. You know, of 'Zionism' fame. What a surprise.

Forgive me a question.
Both Jews and Palestinians originated from this small area (correct ?) That suggests to me that they have a common ancestor (?) They also have similar cultural traditions, again, to me, suggesting common roots. If my above assumptions are true (happy to be corrected if wrong). When/how did the spilt happen? Do DNA records show common ancestry?

The accusations of “Israel being held to a higher standards” make me laugh. If anything, Israel has been held to a much lesser standard and has been allowed to get away with far more because of Europe’s guilt over its atrocities towards Jewish people. Israel’s history of brutality towards Palestinians spans decades. It is still being protected, even now, by a superpower and powerful western nations despite:

• the ICJ ruling it’s actions in Gaza constitute a plausible risk of genocide

• independent human rights organizations (including Israeli ones) declaring it is guilty of apartheid

• its blatant disregard of countless UN resolutions spanning decades and breaches of international law.

• its ongoing illegal military occupation of the West Bank and settlement building

• the ICJ advisory opinion on the illegality of its separation wall.

It has not faced sanctions, it has been allowed to acquire nuclear weapons, it benefits from massive military and financial assistance from the US and other nations.

Other countries such as Iraq got invaded and had the shit bombed out of them for doing far far less than Israel has done over the years.

And I see your stance is also entrenched.

I have a desert rose incidentally, it's a beautiful but fragile thing. The world is full of wonders.