Can you be anti-Zionist without being antisemitic?

[TrigTannet]

I’m inclined to think the answer is no, but I’ve seen a lot of people on here recently attempting to say that they’re not antisemitic, they’re just anti-Zionism. I would love to hear someone explain how they imagine that works.

As I understand it, Zionism is a political ideology which says that Jews should have self determination in their homeland. Many minority indigenous peoples want, and have, some level of self determination, from fully sovereign states to devolution or reserves with different laws. The world overwhelmingly supports that. What is the moral argument against self determination for Jews?

Yes, the USA and Canada were established by 1948, but both had indigenous populations being oppressed at that time. Canada still had "residential schools" into the '90s. Natives were murdered, children taken away from their families and made to confirm to Western language and culture, abused and mistreated to the point that they could no longer communicate with their own immediate families or recall their culture. Yet nobody even blinked and felt that either country was in the wrong for colonizing the land, establishing laws, building infrastructure, and effectively shunning the indigenous cultures in favour of Western ideals. The USA and Canada are now making small gestures to the indigenous communities, but face no calls for the countries to cease existing and "go back where they came from".

Israel was officially established more recently than the USA and Canada. Yes, its establishment was hugely problematic, as were all countries formed on the backs of colonialism. But only Israel is targeted repeatedly by all of it's neighbours purely because of the ethnicity of its people (despite being hugely varied). It has put up with daily rocket attacks for decades, but it isn't publicized because of the huge amount of infrastructure they have to deal with the hatred of other nations. And now the West is turning on them, saying that they cannot defend themselves against terrorists organizations who hide amongst civilians and use human shields, and who are in many cases even denying the massacre that befell innocent civilians. No other country is expected to lay down and accept this.

I am not condoning Israel's carpet-bombing. It is disgraceful, inhumane, and ineffective. I am not condoning the oppression and occupation of Palestinian land. It is immoral, illegal, and absolutely needs to stop immediately. Netanyahu's government needs to be removed and its leaders should face prison for their murderous actions.

But Zionism does not mean the genocide of Palestinians. Blanket-hating Zionism with no separation between extremists and those merely supporting a Jewish homeland (Israel's right to exist) is antisemitic.

And what is happening is Gaza, let us not forget, is a direct consequence of the awfulness of what happened to Jews (and others) in Israel on 7th October.

Can I just politely remind people that "drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis" is antisemitic.

I have no problem with Zionism that supports a two state solution MooseBreath.

It's not antisemitic. It's anti Zionist and pro human. Do you think the treatment of 2 million in Gaza is ok? Anyway forget it. You guys think it's all ok. It's not. The Holocast was horrendous. This situation now is awful too. I hope one day there is peace and all people can love together. Omg. I sound like John Lennon.

Live together in peace I meant.

What's happening in Gaza is dreadful. But it doesn't even remotely resemble "some version" of the Holocaust.

HTH https://www.het.org.uk/

You guys think it's all ok.

Have you got an example of someone saying this?

I'm Jewish and view is Zionism is a bit of a moot point really, seeing as there is a Jewish state. I guess I'm for it being maintained (albeit within 1948 borders) not because I feel there has to be a Jewish state - I think today there are plenty of places, such as the UK, that are safe for Jews - but because it is there and there'd be no way to disestablish it safely and also it would be a bit of an act of vandalism because of itself, Israel is a vibrant, cultured, creative country that has a lot to offer the world.

I also think Israel's treatment of Palestinians is unconscionable, what they are doing in Gaza now is ethnic cleansing and sheer revenge against all Gazans. There should be a safe, secure Palestinian State, and anywhere seized after 1948 should be given back to it - I quite like my DH's idea of a federated Israel-Palestine government with responsibilities to one another and combined rule of Jerusalem. Will never happen though.

I think antizionism can be about anticolonialism rather than antisemitism, but it certainly can be antisemitism as well. It would be a different matter if Jewish people had established Israel in 1948 with an invasion, you'd have a grounds for saying, well the Jews should get out they had no right to take it by force. But the difficulty is that is was granted by a third party colonial power, Britain, after an absolutely unprecedented situation whereby countless Jews were unable, or understandably, unwilling, to return home after their gentile neighbours had waved them and their families away to their deaths in Nazi camps. So it's not really the Jewish population's 'fault' that it's there and you can't just go 'Right, pack up, sorry, shouldn't have given it to you in the first place, go live somewhere else'.

1269 people were killed on Oct 7th
Since then 25,000 were killed in Gaza. 65,000 wounded.

@0palfrootee - I disagree. I think it is entirely legitimate to draw comparisons between Israel's actions and those of the Nazis. If you're not Jewish it needs to be handled with care - for example I don't think one should associate Jewish/Israeli symbols with swastikas on protest placards as that's needlessly alienating and with no further context is likely to offend.

But in conversation where there's back and forth it is a sadly legitimate comparison and one that shames Israel. Its actions in Gaza betrays the memory of my grandfather's family who died in the Holocaust.

@Echobelly I agree with a lot of your points but - you might feel safe, and I feel safe, but there's a lot of Jews in the UK that increasingly don't and I think with very good reason.

I think it is entirely legitimate to draw comparisons between Israel's actions and those of the Nazis.

No, it really isn't OK FFS!

@etmoiandme it really is a version of it. They can't leave Gaza. Only 50% have jobs. Gaza is one huge camp. 1 million under 18 without much prospect of a job.
What is likely to happen? Nothing good. This is not ok. It's really not.
I can't talk about this anymore it's too horrible.

I think there are all sorts of historical events that you could draw comparisons with in relation to the current conflict - the bombing of Dresden, for example. Or the second Iraq war. Neither are perfect comparisons because the context and the way those things played out were of course completely different.

I do think it's antisemitic to compare Israelis to Nazis and indeed this is part of the established definition of antisemitism: https://holocaustremembrance.com/resources/working-definition-antisemitism

But as a history graduate what bugs me more than that is that it's simply inaccurate.

How safe do the 2 million in Gaza feel?
And it makes us all unsafe. When humans hurt other humans no one is safe.

Does anyone know of any other word from any minority that people are ok with having been misappropriated? Or is it just Zionism that people are ok with misappropriating while lecturing the minority whose word it is on what it actually means?

I'm a history graduate. So one state killing 25,000 from another state is ok?
It's not antisemitic to say that one state shouldn't kill 25,000 from another.

It's too easy to deflect any criticism as antisemitism. It's not. People are dying. It's wrong.

I don't know if you are deliberately twisting my words or just having difficulty reading them. At no point have I said that it is OK to kill large numbers of people.

Nor have I said anywhere that criticism is antisemitism. In fact if you read one of my earlier posts on this very thread I said the exact opposite.

It really is very wearing to try and debate with people who twist your words and insist you have said things that you demonstrably haven't.

This is not an "established" definition - it's a "working" definition that the IHRC would like to put forward. There is currently no universally binding definition of antisemitism.

No one on here is saying it is OK. You're just putting words in people's mouths. I'm against the war in Gaza and have been right from the start. I've been against many Israeli policies for most of my adult life and I think what's been happening currently in Gaza is a war crime. But I don't think it's genocide or intentional ethnic cleansing for instance. And it is in NO WAY comparable to the Holocaust - so clearly your history lecturers didn't do a very good job. So I refer you again to the Holocaust Educational Trust's resources.

Completely agree with all of this. Real shame your DH, and people like him, are not in charge, of both sides.

I'm not religious and tbh have quite a dim view of religion (all of them). I do wonder how much religion, (above money, which is usually, scratch the surface, the bottom line of any conflict) is actually the thing poisoning the future (and past) in the region. I'm from a part Jewish family and, at the risk of a massive clichéd, one of my best friends is Palestinian (west bank) both in the UK. We are both bacon eating atheists though and I wonder if our friendship would be possible if we weren't. We're both horrified by the acts of both Hamas are Israel as well.