Remainer 'moral superiority'

[coffeeaddict]

I voted Remain but I dithered and I can see both sides of the argument. (Am I the only one?! Everyone else seems to be so polarised.)

What gets me, especially when I've read discussions on here, is all the very vociferous Remainers who talk as though they have a claim to the moral high ground.

I find the accusation that Brexiteers are 'racist' particularly weird. Europe is mostly white like us. How does race play a card? If anything, letting our borders open to all and every European (majority white) means necessarily less room for other people from different countries and therefore different races.

In fact, what is the EU? A band of rich, predominantly white countries banding together to be more powerful. Fine, this might be best for our trade and prosperity. It might be pragmatic. We might like feeling we could go and live in Spain one day. But that's not the same as being morally 'better'.

But a lot of Remainers behave as though they are inherently 'virtuous' and Brexit is inherently 'evil.'

I don't get it.

I must admit, I have had similar thoughts. I also find myself wondering how the most aggressive remainers will react if there is a second referendum or people's vote on the final deal and the leavers win again or go for a hard Brexit.

one of the very few sensible brexit posts I've seen on here.

Like you I voted Remain and like you I never saw it as a moral issue. I know a lot of people who voted for Brexit and none of them is racist. Mostly they were concerned about sovereignty. The sanctimony of some Remainers sometimes makes me wish I'd voted Leave.

A lot of people on the left don’t like the concept of the EU. That’s in contrast to the people who claim to be left wing but in reality are pissed off that their privileged offspring won’t be able to enjoy a gap year in Europe like they once did.

Remainer here.
I don't believe that everyone who voted leave is racist, but I do think that people who are racist probably tended to vote leave.
Some trade elements of brexit were interesting arguments. I'd also possibly have considered Brexit if I thought some elements of worker's rights would be improved.

What many remainers cite (and I agree) is that for a chunk of thr population, Brexit was never about foreign policy or business or anything sensible and more this misplaced sense of "taking Britain back", "stopping all those foreigners taking our jobs and our benefits" and lots of thr leave campaigned pandered to this EDL sort of rhetoric. Add that into this ridiculous obsession of politicians telling the public 'we don't need experts, don't trust the experts' you've got a weird culture of increasing popularism but where the views being courted are from generally uneducated people who think that because there's a BME family on their road now and there's a mosque been built in the local town that suddenly we're being overran by immigrants (somethibg which has been drip fed in thr likes of the Daily Mail for years).

I also think some of the 'told you so' comes from the fact that Remainers said the bus pledge was a load of bollocks... and it turned out to be a lie. Then a number of key brexit people are actually strengthening their own ties to europe, arranging their finances, getting dual citizenship etc.

Suddenly it all feels like the public's fears of the other and political disaffection have been preyed on in order to make a few already wealthy people wealthier, damage the country so they can do deals that would otherwise be refused and then any attempt to make parliament sovereign and hold the government to account is branded as undemocratic (yet the whole brexit campaign was all about making parliament sovereign).

Brexiteers are accused of racism/xenophobia because many of those who voted to leave did so primarily in order to control immigration, which for some at the thicker/UKIP /EDL end of the spectrum somehow translates into a white Britain magically cleansed of Muslims and job-stealing Poles.

They are accused of stupidity because there is no good argument for leaving the EU. It’s like watching a country commit to cutting its own throat because of a referendum that only occurred because of Tory internal politics, and whose outcome was as it was because of poor understanding of the issues, lamentable misinformation, and a complete indifference to NI.

I think racism plays a part. You don't see people complaining about immigrating Scandinavians or Germans. You see them complaining about people immigrating from nations where Indo-European heritages are predominant.

Quite OP.

Although not in my rl, only on mn.

Because it's not the remainers who caused this current shitfest we're going through now. For that alone they occupy the moral high ground.

I couldn't agree more that not everyone who voted leave is racist but those who are racist tended to vote leave.

I had lots of smart intelligent friends who voted leave. They're not your 'typical' leave voter. They had concerns mostly
About the future or Eu if it continues to expand and having seen Greece and Portugal struggle they thought the future was worrying and it was best to get out now.

They all tried to keep their vote quiet because the leave campaign had been tarred with the racist brush. And none of them ever believed the bus pledge lol
I think it's the silent leavers like those that came out of the woodwork and confounded the polls!

One good thing about Brexit (I voted Remain and dh voted Leave) is that it would leave us more open to offer room etc to those from Commonwealth/ ex colonial countries who may be in need. This would not please the racist bigots who can’t see past their noses.
For dh it was all about sovereignty and,as he is 82, the feeling that we fought two wars to avoid being taken over by Europe.
I now think trade should be separate and we signed up to the Common Market not the mammoth that the EU has become.
I also believe we don’t have the political leadership to broker a decent deal.

Some leavers don't want to acknowledge the uglier elements of the leave campaign. The breaking point poster, the Turkey fearmongering (Michael Gove himself denounced this yesterday). The media have been peddling anti foreigner/anti EU stories for decades.

The problem is that dog whistles/bigotry is now normalised.

Sadly these are yesterdays battles. The UK is about to leave the EU in what looks like a hard Brexit. Probably time to reflect on what that will mean for ordinary families up and down the country.

I was a ditherer. In the end I voted remain because the Leave campaign hadn’t convinced me that change was a good idea and I wasn’t convinced now was the right time anyway. Morality doesn’t come into it really.

Racism isn’t just about colour though. I think there is a fair amount aimed at Eastern Europeans who “come over here and steal our jobs”. As someone else said, not every leave voter is a racist but I imagine most racists votes to leave to “close our borders”.

I wonder, if there were to be a second referendum, how many would actually turn out to vote. Remain would win because Leave would think 'whats the point of voting leave if all that will happen in yet another referendum - I made my choice but it's being ignored'.

Remainer here. All of the people who voted leave that I know were mostly motivated by racism in the form of "getting rid of all the immigrants".

The Vote Leave campaign was totally full of bullshit to appeal to the Britain First type and I'm finding it hard NOT to take the moral high ground tbh, except for the fact that we'll still be leaving but with a much worse deal than we were promised - there aren't really any winners now.

I highly doubt the result would be the same if there was a revote. A lot of brexiters seem to have changed their minds in 2 years. The disappearance of Nigel Farage seems to have helped.

The superiority rests with anyone who follows what is going on, keeps themselves informed and has an understanding of the incredibly complicated process of leaving the EU and the serious effects and consequences it has.

I would suggest the majority of people on both sides do none of these things. However, if you gave an uninformed vote to remain with the status quo, that's different to making an uninformed vote to completely change the political, legal and economic framework that this country has been based on for decades.

I have yet to see a well-reasoned understanding of the process from anyone who voted leave that thinks the current situation is a success. The only leave voters who provide a decent analysis of the situation are people like the Norths who think the government's approach is a shit show.

I remember working conditions before we joined the EEC. The improvements we have now, the working hours directive, entitlement to 28 days annual leave, statutory sick pay, right to join a union - none of these existed before we joined EEC. Yes, some of these employment benefits could do with improving, but Brexit will return us to the 1950s, or worse.

Theresa May says the Tories will improve workers' rights, but with the evidence of the long list of promises that turned out to be lies, we're entitled not to believe her.

Then there's the perennial lie of what percentage of the electorate voted to leave; leavers generally say 'a majority', the proper answer is 37%. By my own calcuation, 37.02%.

The CBI estimates that for every job that moves to the EU, 60 other people will be made redundant. The employer will move the manager because otherwise they'd have to replace skills and experience, but support staff can be recruited locally.Two major EU agencies, The European Medicines Agency and the European Banking Agency, are either in the process of moving right now, or will definitely be gone by 29 March next year.

I voted remain, as I believed that 60 years of peace in a region of the world that has historically been very unstable was worth any monetary figure painted on the side of a bus...I don't feel superior, I feel scared!

Not morally superior. Just correct

I’m a remainer. Much of my extended family voted leave, and are, frankly, racist. Sad but true.

However, I also know leave voters who aren’t (at least overtly - I do t know what they think, only what they say/demonstrate) racist.

In any event, I am tired of the lies. The Brexit we are getting isn’t what ‘the people’ voted for. After all, the people were told we could spend the EU money on the NHS, that we could stay in the single market (according to Boris) and that there would be no issues with Gibraltar or the Irish Border. That people would be lining up to make deals with us, that we wouldn’t have to pay any lump sums to the EU. We were told that labour protections would not be diluted (see Rees Mogg for the reality of what the Tories actually want), that there would be no problem with providing financial services (May has now confirmed that services won’t have free movement), that the EU authorities based on London will stay (hahahaha, they’ve already arranged to leave), that there will be no food shortages (the government is apparently finally stockpiling food), that farmers would still be able to get pickers (shown to be a lie already because our Eastern European pickers have declined to come). And that’s just what I can recall at present. Lies, all of them.

Unless we get a referendum on the final deal, the Brexit that we get is certainly not going to be “the will of the people”. It’s a fraud on the people perpetrated by dishonest chancers who are only out to enrih themselves.

Also Remainer here.

I think a lot of virtuous remainers like to use the not all people voted leave are racist but all racists voted leave as a guilt by association tactic so they can just brush their arguments away.

A friend of mine likes to use that and when I point out that Stormfront actually backed JC/Labour during the last election the guilt by association argument that she is fond of suddenly disappears.

A lot of people have taken the "more educated" voted remain and elevated themselves into this position when in fact they know just as much and in some cases less than those "stupid brexiteers".

As a PP said, there is euroscepticism on the left, and a lot valid reasons a leave vote could be considered from a left leaning/socialist standpoint, what was funny was many posters on here post endless articles supporting large multinational businesses during the EU ref but then when those same companies came out and said Labour/JC would be bad for the country suddenly pinned on their "socialist" badge.

I think it's totally easy to see why some Remainers feel they are on moral high ground.

1. They didn't create this total mess we are now in
2. They saw people being interviewed the morning after the result saying things like "I didn't think we'd actually leave, I just did it as a protest vote" (younger voter) and "I voted leave because my husband did" (older voter) - and yes, I saw both of those
3. Because the most common thing heard from older Leavers is that there's no need for panic, the country will be fine because we were fine before we were in the EU - which is the most stupid comment because the world has moved on considerably in the last 50 years, and particularly in the case of Ireland, and the majority of people didn't give a shiny shit to the what could happen there now

If anything, letting our borders open to all and every European (majority white) means necessarily less room for other people from different countries and therefore different races

Necessarily less room? That sounds like you think there should be less room.

To be honest, the thing which gets me is that people ignore the causes of immigration in the first place.

Can you imagine upping sticks, dragging your young children across an ocean? Just what would it take to do that?

It’s because a lot of these countries are absolutely and utterly fucked. They’ve been bombed to shit, usually funded by the likes of Russia or some such, completely destroyed because we have meddled in one way or another. Historically we’ve left a trail of destruction (anyone interested should read about how we fucked over our British colonies and left them to become corrupt countries). It is heart breaking.

Those who want immigration to reduce or stop should look long and hard at government policies which have historically caused the problems in the first place.

The Leave campaign was better organised, organised much earlier and based on very simple and misleading (I’m being generous) messages. Which were funded illegally.

All of this colours any genuine “leave” arguments. Before the vote, I looked long and hard for a decent argument to support Leave and scratching the surface found nothing. Because I don’t believe sound bites about the NHS or other such bullshit. There was no sensible logical credible argument.

I’m fact I feel more strongly about remaining than I did at the time of the referendum. We’ve had two years and where have we got to? What progress has been made?

Brexit has completely and utterly distracted the country from the mess that our domestic politics is in. Also the mess that the government is in.

Look closer to home - we’ve got:

• adult social care and children’s social care crumbling. Because the Tories have stripped all money from local authorities but don’t give them enough power to raise tax locally and fix it.
• state education crumbling because the Tories have stripped money from schools
• the NHS crumbling because the Tories have stripped money from hospitals
• hidden homelessness is escalating because council housing has been decimated by the Tories, well done Maggie thatcher

People will blame labour, but I’m bored of that now. The Tories could have made different choices but instead they hand out £1bn for votes, borrowing has shot up and money is thrown at embarrassments like the Hinckley nuclear power station.

The Tories are lying (Ester McVey and universal credit is but one example) and it’s deemed ok?

What the hell has happened all for a Leave vote, which only the likes of Jacob Reed Mogg can get excited about. And when someone like him gets excited them I’m fucking worried.

The only leavers I know are racist. Some blatant and some thinly veiled.

I voted Remain but I dithered and I can see both sides of the argument

Same here although i was more remain because of my fears for the economy

Financially minded dh hates the EU, has for years, said many times that he would be out if it in a shot if given the chance etc

Once the referendum date was decided and he looked at it he voted remain, again because of his fears about the economy

I dont think its a moral thing, unfortunately all the people I personally know who voted leave seem to have voted for immigration reasons, or at least thats the first thing they say

I certainly wasnt happy with the government not enforcing the already existing immigration policy and i dont think that makes me racist

I dont think brexit is evil...i just think its a stupid idea...at least without a plan!!!