Remainer 'moral superiority'

[coffeeaddict]

I voted Remain but I dithered and I can see both sides of the argument. (Am I the only one?! Everyone else seems to be so polarised.)

What gets me, especially when I've read discussions on here, is all the very vociferous Remainers who talk as though they have a claim to the moral high ground.

I find the accusation that Brexiteers are 'racist' particularly weird. Europe is mostly white like us. How does race play a card? If anything, letting our borders open to all and every European (majority white) means necessarily less room for other people from different countries and therefore different races.

In fact, what is the EU? A band of rich, predominantly white countries banding together to be more powerful. Fine, this might be best for our trade and prosperity. It might be pragmatic. We might like feeling we could go and live in Spain one day. But that's not the same as being morally 'better'.

But a lot of Remainers behave as though they are inherently 'virtuous' and Brexit is inherently 'evil.'

I don't get it.

[GhostofFrankGrimes]

This type of response is becoming a tired meme.

Nope, the UK leaves in March. Whats the plan or do magically think its going to be fine? Clearly Brexit is won and lost in the minds of leavers. But it is not reality.

[Justanotherlurker]

Nope, the UK leaves in March. Whats the plan or do magically think its going to be fine? Clearly Brexit is won and lost in the minds of leavers. But it is not reality.

I am your nemesis when it comes to General Elections as I am center right and you are a corbyn supporter.

So we will revert the situation, I voted Tory last election and a remainer, I accept the big business neoliberal stance of some win some lose and maximising profits, you can put your cards on the table as to how you are pro eu whilst supporting an historic anti eu leader which as his own admission shits on the poor

[Justanotherlurker]

Nope, the UK leaves in March. Whats the plan or do magically think its going to be fine? Clearly Brexit is won and lost in the minds of leavers. But it is not reality.

Also, conveniently ignores the fact we will never be able to go back to the scenario we was in before. Remain is going to have to spell out the situation and it is going to just get as messy as leave.

This is the situation we are in

[GhostofFrankGrimes]

The only thing remainers needed to do was spell out the disaster. Leavers have to deliver it. Why was none of this put on the side of a bus I wonder?

[Justanotherlurker]

@GhostofFrankGrimes

You keep up in posting memes, it has worked wonders so far..

[washewihersen]

I'm still a passionate Remainer but I wanted us to stay in and push for hardline EU reform. Cameron's half-hearted attempt was a joke and then the whole Referendum campaign was hopeless on both sides.

Neither side set out what leaving would actually mean and now everyone is surprised that there are NI border issues, security issues, pharmaceutical issues, passport and visa issues etc etc. I don't think it's sanctimonious to acknowledge these facts.

We needed facts before the referendum, not propaganda and I will never get over the fact that a lot of people (including me) didn't actually properly know what they were voting for.

[GhostofFrankGrimes]

You will not accept reality. The UK is leaving the EU, possibly a hard brexit. This is not a working class revolution. Communities will change but not for the better.

[CantankerousCamel]

We all know the uk is leaving. I just don’t see the point in dwelling on that, we need to work out what to next.

I am not a ‘leaver’ by the way. I just refuse to play cat n mouse regarding an issue that’s already been decided

[GhostofFrankGrimes]

we need to work out what to next.

You might want to reflect on what exactly David Davies was doing for the last 2 years. At tax payers expense.

[ShackUp]

OP I think you've mistaken 'moral superiority' for 'we tried to tell you it would be a disaster from start to finish, and nobody has yet proved us wrong'.

[ShackUp]

ghost David Davis started from a position of wanting to make bilateral trade deals with Germany. He was never going to hit the ground running

[Motheroffourdragons]

I am not a ‘leaver’ by the way. I just refuse to play cat n mouse regarding an issue that’s already been decided
Interesting, given what you've posted so far.

But surely it is better to keep on saying what made you vote remain in an effort to make a change. That's what I keep doing, just in case it makes a difference.

[CantankerousCamel]

What change are you trying to make? We ARE leaving the EU. We can either be upset, call everyone racists and make ourselves look like idiots or actually try and work out why people voted the way they do and what needs to change for those people to be happy.

[Motheroffourdragons]

We can either be upset, call everyone racists and make ourselves look like idiots

Well, you can do that, I am not.

The fat lady has not sung yet, and I am hoping against hope, probably stupidly, that something will happen before next March that means we won't fall off that cliff in a hard brexit/no deal scenario.

I've never called anyone a racist, I don't think, and I don't think I have magic wand to make everybody happy, but I have the ability to keep on posting to say what I think in the hope it changes a mind here and there, and that might make a difference.

[devilinme]

DIVIDE & RULE

[Havanananana]

What change are you trying to make? We ARE leaving the EU. We can either be upset, call everyone racists and make ourselves look like idiots or actually try and work out why people voted the way they do and what needs to change for those people to be happy


The Leave campaign was expertly marketed, supported by the Mail, Sun, Express and Sky and played on all of the fears and frustrations that the Leave voters were rightly concerned about.

But if you look deeper, most of these issues have nothing to do with the EU, and leaving the EU will not resolve them – in many cases leaving will make the issue worse.

Underfunding of the NHS? – Entirely a UK domestic issue.

Shortage of doctors? – UK domestic policy. The UK has fewer doctors per 1,000 population than most EU countries and treats those it does have very badly. Hunt imposed a pay deal on the junior doctors and told them to like it or lump it. Unsurprisingly, a large number decided to buzz off to Australia, Canada and the USA where their talents are recognised and rewarded.

Shortage of nurses? – The UK has had 70 years to get the train/employ/retain model right and every government since the 70s has failed to get this right.

Lack of affordable housing? – UK domestic issue, exacerbated by differences in regional employment opportunities and the unchecked flood of money from overseas investing in UK property (which Johnson was keen to encourage when Mayor of London). There is a reason why a 3 bed terraced house costs £50,000 in North Shields and £750,000 in North London.

Uncontrolled immigration? – Twice as many immigrants come to the UK from non-EU countries (over which the UK has full control) than from the EU. EU immigrants could be controlled by invoking the 3-month rule that every other EU country uses if EU immigrants are not able to support themselves, so this too is an issue of UK domestic policy.

Britain being held back from dealing with the rest of the world? – Not true. The EU has trade agreements with most of the world. VW sells 4 million cars a year in China – the UK sells relatively little to China. Is this because the Germans are better at doing business, or because they make goods that the Chinese want at the right price and quality?

Countries are queuing up to do business with the UK? – Not true. Fox has spent 2 years clocking up Airmiles achieving absolutely nothing. The only country hammering on the door is the USA, which wants to buy up the UK (and there is a group of politicians who are only too glad to sell it to them).

The EU keeps the price of fruit and vegetables high? - Not true. Apart from the basic economic argument that says the market finds its own price where 60 million buyers meet the numerous sellers (supermarkets etc). the UK already imports most foods from Africa and South America tariff-free. This food will not become cheaper ‘when tariffs are removed’ as there are no tariffs on them in the first place.

And so on. Almost every issue that fuelled the Leave campaign was a domestic issue. Davis and Johnson like to boast that thousands of Britain’s brightest civil servants have been working on Brexit. Instead of wasting billions on this futile exercise, would it not have been better for these great minds to have been working on the key issues of housing, healthcare, education skills training, regional development, infrastructure etc?

@CantankerousCamel

I agree that the UK should be working to improve the lot of those who voted Leave. But since the root cause of these fears and issues is UK domestic policy, not EU Membership, leaving the EU will not resolve these issues and every study so far published, including the Government's own studies, predict that things will only get worse. Why exactly is the UK going through with this stupidity and why do you believe that those of us pointing this out are making ourselves look like idiots?

[TheElementsSong]

See? We need a TARDIS!

[HulaMelody]

@havanananana Yes. Excellently put.

[PutYourBackIntoit]

Havana, I agree with everything you've written (in your last post, I haven't read the whole thread), but I expect most people who voted didn't vote due to the campaigns. Did you vote remain because of the remain campaign?

[Theworldisfullofgs]

You can hire a tardis.

havanna you are absolutely right.

[Havanananana]

Meanwhile Project Fear becomes Project Reality:

UK steps up doomsday planning for no-deal Brexit

from today's Financial Times. www.msn.com/en-gb/money/news/uk-steps-up-doomsday-planning-for-no-deal-brexit/ar-BBKR2Wr?ocid=spartanntp

In summary:

• M26 to become a lorry park;
  
• Companies beginning to stockpile food and medicines
  
• The government looking to see if it needs to use the military to keep the country running;
  

• John Manzoni, the chief executive of the civil service, told MPs on Thursday that a breakdown between the UK and the EU could have some “horrendous consequences” that the UK is not yet ready to cope with;
  

• many aspects of the contingency planning — like the M26 idea and the use of RAF aircraft to ferry supplies of food and medicine around the country — are so drastic that they risk alarming the public.

[GirlsBlouse17]

I remember for decades before the referendum the media was very anti EU so am sure that must have had an influence on people's views when the referendum finally happened. I remember thinking the referendum campaign on both sides was inadequate and a proper education of the voting public as to the likely consequences of staying in or leaving should have been given over a period of a year before the referendum. Voting should have been based on informed choice. Instead a chunk of it was based on dumbed down debating and campaigns which didn't educate people. Now we have a government who are weak and chaotic and frighteningly in charge of negotiating a deal for us which is supposed to look after our interests for the next 50 years or so.