Remainer 'moral superiority'

[coffeeaddict]

I voted Remain but I dithered and I can see both sides of the argument. (Am I the only one?! Everyone else seems to be so polarised.)

What gets me, especially when I've read discussions on here, is all the very vociferous Remainers who talk as though they have a claim to the moral high ground.

I find the accusation that Brexiteers are 'racist' particularly weird. Europe is mostly white like us. How does race play a card? If anything, letting our borders open to all and every European (majority white) means necessarily less room for other people from different countries and therefore different races.

In fact, what is the EU? A band of rich, predominantly white countries banding together to be more powerful. Fine, this might be best for our trade and prosperity. It might be pragmatic. We might like feeling we could go and live in Spain one day. But that's not the same as being morally 'better'.

But a lot of Remainers behave as though they are inherently 'virtuous' and Brexit is inherently 'evil.'

I don't get it.

@drearydeardre not sure you’ve actually read every post carefully or just skimmed and just seen things which accord with your view.

I don’t buy the argument that all Leave voters are racist. That’s lazy. But I do buy the argument that there wasn’t a decent reason for voting leave and if there was, why hasn’t anyone come up with a decent plan to do so in an orderly way?

The equivalent would be voting in a political party who then turn around and blame the opposition for not having a clue what to do next and spend years wasting time.

I think analysis of the voting demographic showed leave voters much less likely to have been educated to the same level as remain voters. That's not saying they are all uneducated but the statistics show they were less likely to be well educated. That's not remain being superior - it's the flipping facts. But leave didn't base itself on facts -.just hopes and dreams which later turned out to be lies. I think people have been conned and won't be happy when they wake up to exactly how much they've been conned!

Voting leave is totally a moral issue for anyone who understood the ramifications for the Good Friday Agreement.
Basically the only people from my part of the UK (where Remain won massively) who voted leave were Orange Order members following the suggestion of the DUP (the only NI party who opposed the GFA.) Their motivation was to scupper the GFA for once and all, so they could feel better about themselves by once again being ascendant over their Catholic (and probably, these days, centrist) neighbours.

Some English and Welsh leave-voters were so poorly informed about NI that they didn't understand the consequences, and that hard Brexit would cause resumption of civil war within our borders. But those educated enough to research it, who then discounted it, definitely, in my opinion, bear some moral responsibility for the violence that has already started ramping up again in NI.

Yanbu at all op. I agree with all you've written.

I imagine most people who voted didn't really have a clue, on both sides. They'd probably had a cursory glance at the papers, a conversation over dinner, but not really any clue.
Then, for remainders, they rather liked the idea that they were on the 'clever' side, and that's become their sole argument.

Well said Sommerville

There is always violence around the time of the 12th, but this time there is an escalation on both extremes. It's frightening and I too agree that this is as a consequence of leave.

I do kind of agree with you, OP. I do think people are being sanctimonious twats and there is nothing inherently immoral about leaving the EU. But also agree with a PP who said unfortunately the Leave campaign was conducted to appeal to the lowest common denominator and therefore swept up a lot of racist idiots in its wake.

In real life the only people I know who voted for Brexit did so because they are racist and misunderstood what it would mean (BIL), or stupid and misunderstood what it would mean (MIL).

Now MIL actually understands that Brexit means her cheap flights to see her cousin in Spain may get more expensive, and the NHS is not suddenly going to get fixed by an enormous influx of cash, she’s outraged and bleats on constantly that she was lied to and that the referendum was therefore illegal . BIL is still a racist twat who thinks it’s brilliant and will somehow magically reduce the number of Muslims in the country.

So, while I don’t dispute that there are perfectly reasonable arguments in favour of Brexit, and that many voters will have decided based on careful consideration of those arguments, I haven’t met any of those voters and therefore probably do internally lump most Leavers in with the idiots.

YANBU and that is a very good post OP.

I have given up trying to argue with the most venomous REMAINERS now, because they are just 100% wrong about everything they come out with. Many of them know fuckall about anything, and just voted 'remain' because their mates/peers did.

The EU is just a bunch of privileged white men who cream off loads of funds for themselves. I will be glad when we are out.

BTW, not ALL remainers are awful, but the ones that are the most vocal and nasty, and who call Brexiteers 'racist and thick' are a nightmare.

It may have been OK at one time, but for many years now, the EU has only benefited the rich, elite, and powerful. The little (poor) people of which there are many (and that is why the brexit vote won!) don't see ANY benefit at all from being in the EU.

It's these rich and and powerful elite who have tried to fuck up Brexit... Like that dreadful Gina Miller woman who tried to derail Brexit soon after the vote!

Who the fuck does she think she is?

There are some vitriolic remainers in the younger generation. (Under 25,) who call all Brexiteers thick, racist, dumb, bigoted, badly educated, lower class, ugly, and so on and so on..... Many of their PARENTS voted for Brexit, yet they talk like this!

Many of the younger generation (under 25,) don't know any better, as I have spoken to many who don't even know what the EU is, they assume we will never be able to leave the UK again, they get it confused with the UN, and NATO, and they can't name more than 3 countries in the EU.

Right now, I know about ten 20-24 y.o's who are rubbing their hands with glee at the dreadful Brexit deal Theresa May came up with as they think it will make Brexit crash, and we will stay in the EU. I just say 'we'll see.....' (Knowing it ain't gonna happen!!!)

As I recall, the British public didn't even vote to go into the EU, so we have every right to leave. In addition, I reckon if there was another referendum next week, the LEAVE vote would still win, but by a higher margin.

And anyone who thinks the EU want us to stay coz they love us... dream on.... They are just fucked off at losing our 1.4 billion pounds a month!!!

I will be SO glad when we have left.

Many leavers knew that leaving would be a shit show for the first few years, but think it's the right thing for twenty years time.
So, now they have to put up with 'we were right' from the remainders.

I don;t think all Brexiteers are racist but I do think this is spot on

Brexiteers are accused of racism/xenophobia because many of those who voted to leave did so primarily in order to control immigration, which for some at the thicker/UKIP /EDL end of the spectrum somehow translates into a white Britain magically cleansed of Muslims and job-stealing Poles

people who voted purely because of the above - sorry but the cap fits - and they where badly informed and their vote manipulated

I voted remain mainly because I am pro EU but also because there was nothing concrete or fact based that could show me how Brexit would impact the UK - just stupid posters on buses about £798798747759 a week to the NHS - which was a huge lie most people could see through

No one new what Brexit would be so voting for it seemed daft to me

Brexit has been a shite show (who'd have thought that, given that a weak Remainer is calling the shots?) but that doesn't change the fact that

1. the EU was conceived as a common market and it has far overstepped its mandate, and proved entirely intractable in attempts to redress the balance;
2. It is in grave peril and we're right to get out now.

I may well have missed it, but I don't really remember the border issue for NI or the GFA being discussed that much during the campaign, which is very sad as NI and Gibraltar are the two areas of the UK that are most affected.

I and DH were Remainers. We are not necessarily pro-EU, but the issue was that there was no plan for leave or what it meant to get behind. I still believe that re-structuring from within the EU, especially as other countries are being more sceptical, is the best and to do that we have to stop voting anti-EU MEPs who don't bother to turn up!

The divide was not on party lines either (we are Tory remainers, but with family who were Labour leavers, Tory leavers, Lib Dem leavers and Labour remainers). The parties cannot even agree between their own party one position, which is why we are currently left with a plan which is the middle ground but the worst for everyone.

I agree that not all leavers were racist, but that did become a major part of the campaign. Of the leavers that I know and know of, none had a 'proper' reason for voting leave.

By proper reason I mean that I know someone whose family is are Polish immigrants who voted leave to stop the immigrants coming in and stealing jobs (he didn't really understand the irony).

My ILs started any conversation on it with 'It was in the Daily Mail' which discredited anything they said.

My favourite was my mum saying she voted leave to stop the immigrants coming in and taking all the jobs - we live in a part of the country where there is a very low level of immigrants and my mum is retired!

Absolutely I feel morally superior as a remainer. I think the Electoral Commission would support that view.
The leave campaign was based on cheating and lies.
The leave campaign drummed up xenophobia and generated hate towards anyone who isn’t non white UK St George’s flag waving, vest wearing, special brew drinking numpties. It’s made racism more acceptable and validated misinformation about immigration, resources, law making, sovereignty, finances and the promised land.
It was done to boost the careers of certain politicians who knew full well it was always going to be a bad idea.
Sadly those likely to be worst affected are those who voted leave because they tend to be less educated, less affluent and live in more challenged areas.

Sadly those likely to be worst affected are those who voted leave because they tend to be less educated, less affluent and live in more challenged areas.

Eye-roll.

You are not allowed to point out that statistically leave voters was less well educated than remainers. It upsets people.

I am yet to meet a leaver who will even acknowledge the existence of the government impact assessment reports that state regardless of what type of Brexit we end up with the country will be poorer for it.

Umm, well this is what the privileged white men who ran the Leave.EU campaign thought of the people of Britain: that they should be lied to and led up the garden path to achieve what he wanted.

Leave.EU led people up the garden path - Arron Banks
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44446632

Mr Banks told the committee, adding: "We were not above using alternative methods to punch home our message or lead people up the garden path if we had to."
[...]
Asked what the difference was between provocation and lies, [Mr Wigmore] said: "If you are trying to sell something or put a good case over to somebody you will tell the best story. If that's provocation - or a lie, if you want to call it that, yeah."

OP, the thing is about the "Remainers are more educated" thing is that it is factually correct.

People who left school at 15 or 16 voted around two to one for Brexit. For people with A-levels or equivalent qualification it was 50:50. Graduates voted two to one to remain. (This is from YouGov polls.)

Not morally superior. But intellectually superior.

I keep hearing about these intelligent Leave voters with an intricate knowledge of the workings of the EU and cogent arguments about why Leave will create a stronger economy etc.
I've yet to meet one in RL.

Every Leave voter I've met in RL has mentioned 'immigration' within the first 30 seconds. Every. Single. One.

And where is the UK now? Beholden to Trump.

I believe that people who voted leave voted on one or two issues and closed their minds to the wider picture. The people I know who are leavers were also the ones who appeared not to have bothered watching all the debates on tv. Now the voters appear to be carried onwards in a tide of dissonance. That is ignore the practicalities when the fact that they might have been in error is not possible as they felt such emotions when voting. What a mess! Encouraged by that idiot Johnson etc. If he ever gets to be PM I will give up on this country.

I'm not saying that less educated people are wrong / don't deserve a vote or anything like that btw. I'm just saying that it is correct to say that more educated people tended to vote for Remain.

That’s the issue with a campaign based on falsehood that swept certain people into a ‘sovereignty frenzy’ (aka neo fascist ranting) about the twaddle that has popularist appeal and is supported by certain tabloids. If we stuck with facts then of course it would be acknowledged that the vote came from the less well educated / informed.

the EU was conceived as a common market and it has far overstepped its mandate,

It was never laid out in treaties that the EU would only go so far as a common market. "Ever closer union between the peoples of Europe" has been written into all treaties since 1957. No specific mention of just a common market.

In any case, the UK had guaranteed exemption from any further closer political union, so voting to leave based on that was pointless.

I didn't feel superior when I voted remain. I was unsure how to vote for a long time. As the truth becomes more apparent - the lies that were told by brexiteers, the accusations that remain was campaigning on 'fear' when the mess is worse than we had feared, the hideous queue of migrants poster, I am now feeling superior. I'm really pissed off that a bunch of -knobheads- people like farage and boris have created a shitstorm for the rest of us. I feel that people didn't vote in full possession of the facts and were mislead. The people I knew who voted brexit have gone very quiet.

"I think analysis of the voting demographic showed leave voters much less likely to have been educated to the same level as remain voters."

That's a coincidental statistic due to the fact that older people tended to be more pro-leave. 50 per cent of young people get a degree these days, instead of the 7 per cent it used to be. So of course there are fewer older graduates.

It isn't an indicator of relative intelligence or wisdom, as some would have you believe. The older generations were and are every bit as intelligent as today's young people. They were simply more likely to learn their skills at work than at university, which back then was weighted far more towards pure academia than vocational training (yes, there is some overlap, but in general that's the difference).

This whole post is a strawman really.

No one has ever as I can see said that Brexit is evil and remainers are virtuous.

There evidence that some of the leave vote was based on prejudice and racism. Some of the statements on here about immigrants and immigration and the factual inaccuracies about its impacts are staggering.

There is also evidence that the leave vote was less educated than the remain.

But you aren't allowed to use evidence.