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Remainer 'moral superiority'

856 replies

coffeeaddict · 17/07/2018 07:26

I voted Remain but I dithered and I can see both sides of the argument. (Am I the only one?! Everyone else seems to be so polarised.)

What gets me, especially when I've read discussions on here, is all the very vociferous Remainers who talk as though they have a claim to the moral high ground.

I find the accusation that Brexiteers are 'racist' particularly weird. Europe is mostly white like us. How does race play a card? If anything, letting our borders open to all and every European (majority white) means necessarily less room for other people from different countries and therefore different races.

In fact, what is the EU? A band of rich, predominantly white countries banding together to be more powerful. Fine, this might be best for our trade and prosperity. It might be pragmatic. We might like feeling we could go and live in Spain one day. But that's not the same as being morally 'better'.

But a lot of Remainers behave as though they are inherently 'virtuous' and Brexit is inherently 'evil.'

I don't get it.

OP posts:
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Xenia · 23/07/2018 12:06

Yes - th European Medicines Agency - see www.ema.europa.eu/docs/en_GB/document_library/Other/2018/03/WC500244941.pdf and www.ema.europa.eu/ema/index.jsp?curl=pages/news_and_events/news/2018/03/news_detail_002916.jsp&mid=WC0b01ac058004d5c1

The one aspect that will comfort those who chose to vote for brexit I hope is that we lawyers will probably do fairly well out of it! I am sure that will help the Brexiteers sleep easier in their beds.

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Jimjamjooney · 23/07/2018 10:26

Xenia, thank you for your informative reply. Do you know the name of the regulatory body for my own research Grin. I agree with not making drugs purely for the UK market. Hopefully we'll stick to GMP and everything else to make trade easier.

It is all so complicated, I hope we can come up with workable solutions.

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Xenia · 23/07/2018 07:23

In the pharma sector ther egulatory body which EU wide was based in London is moving to Amsterdam with a lot of personal implications for its staff and family members. I think the UK is hoping that we can get some agreement with EU27 about if medicines are approved in the UK they can still be sold in EU27 and vice versa and there is certainly a lot of desire in the industry to achieve which is not to say though that the political people in the EU and UK will not scupper that. If you are making medicines you probably want the simplicity of one approval for EU 28 and soon 27 so might not want to make in the Uk for the UK market meeting UK specific requirements. I am sure we will cope but it is not easy or desirable. There are staff shortages in specialists areas in that and many other sectors and a lot of people are hired from the EU (and as you say elsewhere too).

I am not too worried about visas and studying in EU27 and most UK students don't study abroad anyway but that will certainly had an effect and already people will not be choosing to go to places they may not be allowed to stay. Mmy doctor sibling did their bit abroad in Australia so I agree that people don't always just go to the EU.

There are just so many issues and sectors that it is very complicated. We will just have to get through it as best we can.

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Jimjamjooney · 23/07/2018 00:36

A small point (??) in the grand scheme of things. SoloD you said The CAA does not have the staff or resources to certify aircraft and aerospace parts after Brexit. Thus Rolls Royce is already shifting jobs and work from British workers in the UK to Germany, so they can certify their Engines in Germany by EASA. Many other firms will have to do the same thing. In pharmaceuticals, chemicals, dozens of industries

Fair enough about the CAA, I don't know much about that organisation, but with the pharmaceutical industry etc. for example, what staff/ resources don't we have that mainland Europe does? We're producing/ already have plenty of people who are working in industrial roles as qualified persons, formulation scientists, chemists etc. We also have manufacturing plants over here (this is not me saying it's enough to supply for the UK, I'm not sure!)

Another point that frequently comes up is about young people not having the same opportunities to study abroad (abroad meaning Europe). I genuinely don't know if I'm missing something, but what would be so bad about having to get a student visa (which you need to study in Asia, USA etc.), or studying elsewhere? I know there is the ERASMUS programme, but I chose to do my semester abroad in Malaysia as it was still cheaper than doing it in Europe even with the Erasmus grant.

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user1457017537 · 21/07/2018 12:08

Sir James Goldsmith campaigned for a Referendum on EU membership.

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GirlsBlouse17 · 21/07/2018 12:02
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GirlsBlouse17 · 20/07/2018 20:54

I remember for decades before the referendum the media was very anti EU so am sure that must have had an influence on people's views when the referendum finally happened. I remember thinking the referendum campaign on both sides was inadequate and a proper education of the voting public as to the likely consequences of staying in or leaving should have been given over a period of a year before the referendum. Voting should have been based on informed choice. Instead a chunk of it was based on dumbed down debating and campaigns which didn't educate people. Now we have a government who are weak and chaotic and frighteningly in charge of negotiating a deal for us which is supposed to look after our interests for the next 50 years or so.

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Havanananana · 20/07/2018 19:51

Meanwhile Project Fear becomes Project Reality:

UK steps up doomsday planning for no-deal Brexit

from today's Financial Times. www.msn.com/en-gb/money/news/uk-steps-up-doomsday-planning-for-no-deal-brexit/ar-BBKR2Wr?ocid=spartanntp

In summary:

  • M26 to become a lorry park;
  • Companies beginning to stockpile food and medicines
  • The government looking to see if it needs to use the military to keep the country running;


  • John Manzoni, the chief executive of the civil service, told MPs on Thursday that a breakdown between the UK and the EU could have some “horrendous consequences” that the UK is not yet ready to cope with;


  • many aspects of the contingency planning — like the M26 idea and the use of RAF aircraft to ferry supplies of food and medicine around the country — are so drastic that they risk alarming the public.
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Theworldisfullofgs · 20/07/2018 12:10

You can hire a tardis.

havanna you are absolutely right.

Remainer 'moral superiority'
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PutYourBackIntoit · 20/07/2018 12:07

Havana, I agree with everything you've written (in your last post, I haven't read the whole thread), but I expect most people who voted didn't vote due to the campaigns. Did you vote remain because of the remain campaign?

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HulaMelody · 20/07/2018 11:38

@havanananana Yes. Excellently put.

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TheElementsSong · 20/07/2018 11:16

See? We need a TARDIS!

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Havanananana · 20/07/2018 10:05

What change are you trying to make? We ARE leaving the EU. We can either be upset, call everyone racists and make ourselves look like idiots or actually try and work out why people voted the way they do and what needs to change for those people to be happy


The Leave campaign was expertly marketed, supported by the Mail, Sun, Express and Sky and played on all of the fears and frustrations that the Leave voters were rightly concerned about.

But if you look deeper, most of these issues have nothing to do with the EU, and leaving the EU will not resolve them – in many cases leaving will make the issue worse.

Underfunding of the NHS? – Entirely a UK domestic issue.

Shortage of doctors? – UK domestic policy. The UK has fewer doctors per 1,000 population than most EU countries and treats those it does have very badly. Hunt imposed a pay deal on the junior doctors and told them to like it or lump it. Unsurprisingly, a large number decided to buzz off to Australia, Canada and the USA where their talents are recognised and rewarded.

Shortage of nurses? – The UK has had 70 years to get the train/employ/retain model right and every government since the 70s has failed to get this right.

Lack of affordable housing? – UK domestic issue, exacerbated by differences in regional employment opportunities and the unchecked flood of money from overseas investing in UK property (which Johnson was keen to encourage when Mayor of London). There is a reason why a 3 bed terraced house costs £50,000 in North Shields and £750,000 in North London.

Uncontrolled immigration? – Twice as many immigrants come to the UK from non-EU countries (over which the UK has full control) than from the EU. EU immigrants could be controlled by invoking the 3-month rule that every other EU country uses if EU immigrants are not able to support themselves, so this too is an issue of UK domestic policy.

Britain being held back from dealing with the rest of the world? – Not true. The EU has trade agreements with most of the world. VW sells 4 million cars a year in China – the UK sells relatively little to China. Is this because the Germans are better at doing business, or because they make goods that the Chinese want at the right price and quality?

Countries are queuing up to do business with the UK? – Not true. Fox has spent 2 years clocking up Airmiles achieving absolutely nothing. The only country hammering on the door is the USA, which wants to buy up the UK (and there is a group of politicians who are only too glad to sell it to them).

The EU keeps the price of fruit and vegetables high? - Not true. Apart from the basic economic argument that says the market finds its own price where 60 million buyers meet the numerous sellers (supermarkets etc). the UK already imports most foods from Africa and South America tariff-free. This food will not become cheaper ‘when tariffs are removed’ as there are no tariffs on them in the first place.

And so on. Almost every issue that fuelled the Leave campaign was a domestic issue. Davis and Johnson like to boast that thousands of Britain’s brightest civil servants have been working on Brexit. Instead of wasting billions on this futile exercise, would it not have been better for these great minds to have been working on the key issues of housing, healthcare, education skills training, regional development, infrastructure etc?

@CantankerousCamel

I agree that the UK should be working to improve the lot of those who voted Leave. But since the root cause of these fears and issues is UK domestic policy, not EU Membership, leaving the EU will not resolve these issues and every study so far published, including the Government's own studies, predict that things will only get worse. Why exactly is the UK going through with this stupidity and why do you believe that those of us pointing this out are making ourselves look like idiots?

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devilinme · 19/07/2018 23:38

DIVIDE & RULE

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smilethoyourheartisbreaking · 19/07/2018 23:17

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Motheroffourdragons · 19/07/2018 23:11

We can either be upset, call everyone racists and make ourselves look like idiots

Well, you can do that, I am not.

The fat lady has not sung yet, and I am hoping against hope, probably stupidly, that something will happen before next March that means we won't fall off that cliff in a hard brexit/no deal scenario.

I've never called anyone a racist, I don't think, and I don't think I have magic wand to make everybody happy, but I have the ability to keep on posting to say what I think in the hope it changes a mind here and there, and that might make a difference.

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CantankerousCamel · 19/07/2018 22:59

What change are you trying to make? We ARE leaving the EU. We can either be upset, call everyone racists and make ourselves look like idiots or actually try and work out why people voted the way they do and what needs to change for those people to be happy.

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Motheroffourdragons · 19/07/2018 22:56

I am not a ‘leaver’ by the way. I just refuse to play cat n mouse regarding an issue that’s already been decided
Interesting, given what you've posted so far.

But surely it is better to keep on saying what made you vote remain in an effort to make a change. That's what I keep doing, just in case it makes a difference.

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ShackUp · 19/07/2018 21:53

ghost David Davis started from a position of wanting to make bilateral trade deals with Germany. He was never going to hit the ground running Grin

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ShackUp · 19/07/2018 21:52

OP I think you've mistaken 'moral superiority' for 'we tried to tell you it would be a disaster from start to finish, and nobody has yet proved us wrong'.

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GhostofFrankGrimes · 19/07/2018 21:30

we need to work out what to next.

You might want to reflect on what exactly David Davies was doing for the last 2 years. At tax payers expense.

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CantankerousCamel · 19/07/2018 21:28

We all know the uk is leaving. I just don’t see the point in dwelling on that, we need to work out what to next.

I am not a ‘leaver’ by the way. I just refuse to play cat n mouse regarding an issue that’s already been decided

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smilethoyourheartisbreaking · 19/07/2018 21:24

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

GhostofFrankGrimes · 19/07/2018 21:05

You will not accept reality. The UK is leaving the EU, possibly a hard brexit. This is not a working class revolution. Communities will change but not for the better.

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washewihersen · 19/07/2018 21:04

I'm still a passionate Remainer but I wanted us to stay in and push for hardline EU reform. Cameron's half-hearted attempt was a joke and then the whole Referendum campaign was hopeless on both sides.

Neither side set out what leaving would actually mean and now everyone is surprised that there are NI border issues, security issues, pharmaceutical issues, passport and visa issues etc etc. I don't think it's sanctimonious to acknowledge these facts.

We needed facts before the referendum, not propaganda and I will never get over the fact that a lot of people (including me) didn't actually properly know what they were voting for.

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