Remainer 'moral superiority'

[coffeeaddict]

I voted Remain but I dithered and I can see both sides of the argument. (Am I the only one?! Everyone else seems to be so polarised.)

What gets me, especially when I've read discussions on here, is all the very vociferous Remainers who talk as though they have a claim to the moral high ground.

I find the accusation that Brexiteers are 'racist' particularly weird. Europe is mostly white like us. How does race play a card? If anything, letting our borders open to all and every European (majority white) means necessarily less room for other people from different countries and therefore different races.

In fact, what is the EU? A band of rich, predominantly white countries banding together to be more powerful. Fine, this might be best for our trade and prosperity. It might be pragmatic. We might like feeling we could go and live in Spain one day. But that's not the same as being morally 'better'.

But a lot of Remainers behave as though they are inherently 'virtuous' and Brexit is inherently 'evil.'

I don't get it.

The levels of educational attainment argument being related to age are false, because the surveys all say "or equivalent professional qualification" , I know, I took one.

However a degree in film studies etc does not mean you are more aware of the intricacies of the EU or give you more political insight.

I love the way a previous poster has excused the Remain side from having to make any points in the debate.

Yes, I remember those Remainer leaflets given to children calling them Polish vermin.....no wait ...
The crude discourse is horrible but let's not forget where it started and exactly the kind of people Leave got into bed with.
And having lots of money doesn't make you an intellectual- "fur coat and no knickers" covers that nicely.

You are not allowed to point out that statistically leave voters was less well educated than remainers. It upsets people.

What shouldn't be done is to conclude from that the remaining was therefore the more sensible thing to do.

There could be any number of reasons for that fact. More job opportunities in the rest of the EU for Brits with degrees than those without them, for example.

Not seen any of that.

Like a lot of people I've seen utterly fatuous posts like Butters above that mock, attack, yet make no points of their own and are full of hyperbole.

There was a lot of racist sentiment raised during the referendum, the vote leave campaign took full advantage of this with their Turkey claims.

I don't really care what motivated people to vote and what they think about people on the other side.

Brexit is going to fuck up our country.

You either think that or you don't.

Brexit is not going to hit wealthy people - whether they are leavers or remainers - as much as it will hurt poor people.

Middle class, affluent, well off, comfortable, whatever you want to call them leavers - who will be immune from the calamities of Brexit - saying 'suck it up' are really annoying.

"What shouldn't be done is to conclude from that the remaining was therefore the more sensible thing to do."

Well yes, but it does rather look given the situation that it was, so maybe there is something in that?

What is clear from your post butterfly is that money doesn't bring you charm or wit.

in the case of another referendum, the leave vote would be much much higher. I think there’s very little patience for the bullying tactics of the EU. Leavers don’t discuss their vote because it’s summarily dismissed as racist by holier than thou remainers who spout insufferable nonsense such as “leavers are incapable of critical thinking” and “everyone I know who voted leave is a racist thug” etc etc ad infinitum..
I can understand the vote to remain and the vote to leave. I believe it’s at best disingenuous and at worst downright deceitful when remainers say they can’t/won’t understand both sides of the argument. This discussion has two sides to it,whether we like it or not. Understanding the benefits to both arguments, is what separates the morally superior from the more open minded.

What shouldn't be done is to conclude from that the remaining was therefore the more sensible thing to do.

2 years after the referendum, with the impacts now known I would certainly say that remaining is more sensible. Alas, this is not going to happen so down the shitter we go.

It's these rich and and powerful elite who have tried to fuck up Brexit... Like that dreadful Gina Miller woman who tried to derail Brexit soon after the vote

Why @butterflysugarbaby do you think this about the rich and powerful trying to ruin Brexit?

What are Nigel Farage, Arron Banks, Jacob rees Mogg, if not rich and powerful to name but a few.

Anyone who blames Remoaners on the “elite” has lost the argument.

Brexiters need to stand up and take responsibility and come up with a decent fucking argument or way forward.

There isn’t one I’ve seen and I’ve been waiting for years.

" think there’s very little patience for the bullying tactics of the EU."

How are the EU bullying us? Be specific.

However what it fails to note is that each of these policies was debated at both EU and national level before being signed up to, by democratically elected governments and politicians.

Have there been many options for people who didn't want to be signed up to these policies to vote that way? In, say, the mid 90s, if I wanted to vote for a party which was against closer ties with Europe, for whom could I have voted?

Do you think remainers are stupid for worrying? (genuine question) Do you think things always work out fine in the end?

Some things I'm worried about, off the top of my head:

Ireland - Boarders. What are you solutions here?

Leaving Euratom - not being able to get cancer drugs. What should be done?

Financial services contribute over 2 billion to the economy, we look to be losing this.

Food going to waste in the fields...

Why don't brexitteers talk more about the good things Brexit will bring? Please leavers, cheer us up!

Not all Brexiters are racist, but all racists are Brexiters. That alone makes me not want to be one.

The bullying tactics of the EU are almost as repulsive as people who think they are left wing but rail against the undeserved votes of plebs on behalf of neoliberalism and its trade preferences, which is not quite the position of a higher moral or intellectual caste that some people seem to think it is.

It must be very difficult for Corbyn to preside over a party full of the footsoldiers of global capitalism against democracy. What a bizarre situation to be in.

"In, say, the mid 90s, if I wanted to vote for a party which was against closer ties with Europe, for whom could I have voted?"

The referendum party, they had 547 candidates standing and campaigned specifically on this and gained 2.6% of the total vote.

There was a Brexit Arms thread which tried to be cheery and jolly but the posters didn't like people asking awkward questions behind the cheeriness and jolliness so that stopped. Leavers appear to dislike being challenged and people not being positive .
Tough. Shit.

What bullying tactics of the EU?

How are they bullying us when we haven't even made proposals on the most important matters to negotiate on?

I think a lot of us would vote Leave that didn't before if we could go back in time, because economic scare stories are one thing, but the attitudes on display during and after the referendum, that we should be rolling back the vote, not giving votes to old people etc. are bordering on fascistic to be frank.

in the case of another referendum, the leave vote would be much much higher

I'd question that, actually. Some polls agree with you, others don't. What IS true is that the majority of younger people voted Remain. There were a lot of 16- and 17-year olds who wanted to vote last time and didn't who would vote this time. I've met some Leavers who say they would change their vote but I've not met a Remainer who would change their's (which doesn't mean none would, but it's unlikely).

On balance, I think another referendum that had the same single question would reverse the result - although not by any sort of landslide. The difficulty would be the result of a three-way question as is currently being suggested by some quarters, where second preferences may have to come into play.

And that's before we talk about Leave being reported to the Police for breaking election law.

That’s in contrast to the people who claim to be left wing but in reality are pissed off that their privileged offspring won’t be able to enjoy a gap year in Europe like they once did

I don't claim to be left wing and I don't think my offspring is particularly privileged but yes I am annoyed he will not have the same opportunities as I did and wonder why it's such a bad thing to want to learn languages, experience different cultures and study or work overseas?

But the main reason I voted to Remain was because I know flippin well that the only reason a lot of Tories want us to leave is because they want to dismantle employment protection and have a US type system.

I am not that keen on unlimited immigration as I don't want the green belt building on, and I think Juncker is a prat of the highest order, but those issues do not outweigh the very real advantages of staying int he EU.

I don't think I have the moral high ground and have never sought to say all Brexiteers are racists. I do think some of the more rabid Tory Brexiteers are dangerous though.

How will Brexit detach the UK from global capitalism?

The EU is not bullying the UK. It is more a case that leavers have "won" but have no idea as to what their prize is or even how to claim it. Rather than hold their hands and admit this they start blaming everybody else.

I know that leavers had fewer degrees. But I am uneasy at the idea that their vote therefore counts for less (where on earth does that reasoning end...?) or indeed that 'degree' equals 'informed'. I have three degrees including a doctorate but a lot of the time I live in a bubble, I'll admit that, and I have had plenty of conversations with so-called 'uneducated' people who have very informed opinions.

Never once said - don't give votes to "the old" (my Mums's last vote before she died was Remain). Never once said "we need another vote because I don't agree with the outcome ".
Rarely seen either of those comments on here and I am on here a lot.