NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #40

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35
Thread 36 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378031-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-36
Thread 37: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378200-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-37
Thread 38: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378463-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-38
Thread 39: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378747-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-39

From TT

NC - DU phone log, no mention of it in iv. Aware of notes when you interviewed him?
NC - Were u aware DU talking notes on his phone when u interviewed him?
AG - give me two seconds
AG - So in the meeting Beth told me issues with SP earlier. Isn't noted in hearing but said she had logged them on her phone. I said tell me about them
AG - Then told me about instances from notes
NC - So that mention of those notes didn't make into notes. U made no record in the interview?
AG - No
NC - why? Important detail? He had notes on phone SP had behaved badly to him
AG - what he told me was info I took
NC - Here that says [reads 'Rw not provided log and lx not asked'] did that not make u think important I should get hold of them?
AG - Info was on personal phone and info I gathered was from Beth what had happened on those days

Fifer : tae be fair, Ange wis tryin tae dae Dr Upton a solid here. Pit yer persie phone awa noo, if ye dinnae want it lifted for the tribunal. That's at least a 16, it's got the 11 cameras ken, must hae set ye back a month's pey ken.

Oh, fuck.

Are they back? I've got a blank screen

Thanks. I'd like to try to track that bit down to re-read, but don't know where to start!

@ArabellaScott

I read Nairn as Narnia at first glance. 😂

I love the thought that menopause is a sort of sacred blessing given to us by Mother Evolution and is a time for us to pass on our collective wisdom to eagerly attentive young women while sitting round the cave fire sucking on our hand whittled pipes and sticking feathers and twigs into our matted locks. Is it fuck. It means you don’t have to carry tampons around just in case, can throw away your old knickers without having to recycle them as period week pants first, and best of all don’t have to worry about getting pregnant.

Anyway, back to Fife, went out for the day yesterday and had to skim through events, sounds like it was a busy day in the office with tears and sniffing. I will try to keep up a bit better today but have things to do.

Some misgendering by AG. Tut.

NC has argued that AG felt that DU couldn't have been asked to substantiate his allegations by providing the notes from his phone because he was too important and his word had to be taken without question.

Seems hindsight is a wonderful thing to most of these clowns

I also thought there was mention of a policy line that said to have a conversation with your colleague about the issue to try to resolve it, but don't recall where that came from?

From TT

NC - best evidence was what Beth had noted on his phone?
AG - I ask questions, what happened, where, you know... thats what i did at the time. Reflecting today it may have helped but was personal phone

Fifer : Ange kent fine well Dr U wid hae a hard time keepin up with the Tiktoks on the ten poond nokia (we've aw got ane somewhaur).

NC - did u know DU recorded all incidents on his phone including incident room
AG - yes
NC - I suggest u felt very anxious to ask DU for that - like others did?
AG - No
NC - and asking him to back up story felt disrespectful to u to someone as important to DU? He had to be appeased and u had to take his word?

NC is wearing The Ring again. It seems to be drawing light towards itself. It's grey, but somehow darker than nearby black objects. Human perception is a funny thing, and easily manipulated. Who is even thinking these thoughts?

NC - [another page] so those allegations about DU previous conduct. U didnt challenge him or ask him?
AG - no was lxing about something else
NC - U needed to lx DU didnt u? He was making allegations about a longstanding nurse and she was saying he was a troublemaker
[JR objects]

Fifer : aye here we gan again. Up the Kirk Brae tae Objection Close.

I’m sticking to what I said ages ago, there’s a carbon monoxide leak in Victoria hospital and as a result they have all lost their minds and their memories, what else can explain this utter insanity?!

It might seem that NC is being a dog with a bone over the phone notes but she's filing in a picture, that every single aspect of how things were handled by NHSF had to be done to benefit Upton at the expense of SP.

Do we know these previous allegations 're Upton's behaviour? Or is This new?

Oh I bet he wouldn’t say no to a slice of carrot cake.

A long time ago in the midst of some maternity related discrimination against me, I actually had someone from HR tell me that they didn't think I'd take it to tribunal as they could see my wages and knew I was part time!

During this same time period is when I had lodged a complaint about a trans identifying male colleague making video calls and masturbating in the women's bathrooms, while I was on the floor, knickers off, trying to scuffle into an adult nappy to avoid secondary incontinence, and aiming my head at the bowl trying to make sure I didn't slapdash the cubicle with vomit and urine from severe hyperemesis and was told there was no trans identifying male in the women's toilets so I must be mistaken.

They were of course 100% correct I did not have the money, because I had to take a lot of time off sick due to an uncomfortable and extremely difficult pregnancy, nor did I have the energy or confidence.

But the gall to just be told it straight to my face, wow.

See the issue is that these patients incidents should have been recorded on datix or work systems. NOT on his PERSONAL phone. As a manager I'd be concerned that patient information was being recorded outside of official systems.

"What he told me..."

He?

Is it perhaps the stuff reported in the Mail (yesterday i think)? That alleged that in another hospital he had complained about misgendering by an older patient and inadequate levels of support from a junior doctor, if I recall correctly.

For the parallel misconduct one??

I mean, where has all that paperwork and documentation gone?

From TT

NC - Having seen those allegations potentially career ending by DU against SP, dont u think it would be good idea to find if any truth in those 3 paras?
AG - I think i was fair to SP and tried to determine facts of 26th sept. Wasn't there to determine what happened previously

Fifer : ah hink Ange has been tae this circus afore. Nae dancin wi the cloon for her. The first time ye get a wet bum, the second time ye stey in yer seat ken.

NC - weren't these important qs about DU credibility?
AG - I was there to find out facts on incident put towards me
NC - U were told by DU he had no prior issues- u needed to know whether true or not?
AG - [pause] i was there to lx the incident in September

NC - want to ask u about what delayed the lx now. Turn to 806. About 'urgency' [reads email] Miss Russell asked what urgency was and u said board had info about these proceedings. So no urgency until then?
AG - not true. Urgency in CLo was about ET. Imperative u do lx quickly

Fifer : We huv a sayin. Erse protection that ye pit oan too late, isnae protectin yer erse at aw. If ye deh want a skelfie erse, pit it oan as soon as ye can.

If anything else I would have been concerned Upton was gathering information unofficially in order to use it against people at a later date. Which is exactly what he has tried to do.
They should have been recorded when they happened on NHS systems. Not his personal devices

Yes I saw that yesterday, but haven't heard it referred to in the tribunal.

I think a huge part of it comes down to the simple (as I see it) fact that this is an open-and-shut case that Peggie will win with ease, and therefore there is literally nothing JR can do other that try to make a few random, unconnected and potentially contradictory points that hopefully (for Fife's sake) undermine the size of Peggie's win.

[Nearly miss-typed as "open-and-shit", and that'd be fair too]

The truth will out!