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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #31

1000 replies

nauticant · 18/07/2025 12:49

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30, found here: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30

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24
myplace · 18/07/2025 21:36

ThatCyanCat · 18/07/2025 21:34

Tracked changes on Word is when a document is edited and it shows what edits were made by whom.

Yes, I assumed only those I chose to share with could see previous versions ~spelling mistakes~ not everyone!

KnottyAuty · 18/07/2025 21:37

Largesso · 18/07/2025 20:00

They’ve removed the first but about Sex Matters saying things in public and the bit about NC being chair of Sex Matters. They do left the later added qualifier saying they don’t mean to imply Sex Matters is responsible for death threats which was undoubtedly the earlier implication alongside the implication that NC is biased because she is a hair of Sex Matters which again demonstrates the limited intellectual powers at play. As others have mentioned she is clear in her position but that doesn’t mean she can’t argue the law.

Also, removing the defamatory paragraphs after publication doesn’t protect you, I don’t think, from a defamation case being brought?

Also, how silly to remove those paras but not the later added qualifier.

It didn’t help Lucy Connolly….

Notfinanciallyresponsibleforyou · 18/07/2025 21:38

we all thank you for your service 🥂

prh47bridge · 18/07/2025 21:38

MyAmpleSheep · 18/07/2025 20:45

Disability is a special case: discrimination against someone for not being disabled is explicitly allowed (s.13(3) of the act and s.15).

The fact that EA2010 has to explicitly allow discrimination against someone who doesn't have the PC of disability is a strong argument that discrimination against someone who doesn't have another PC, such as GR, because they don't have that GR, is unlawful.

I thought after I posted it that disability was a bad example. It's been a long day. However, I agree that the fact the act specifically allows discrimination against people without a disability but is silent on GR is an argument that it is not legal to discriminate against people without a GR.

borntobequiet · 18/07/2025 21:40

CatKings · 18/07/2025 20:23

In a week that junior doctors are looking for a pay rise Dr Upton isn’t a great representation of professionalism is he?
Leaving on one of the busiest shifts of the year because someone used some hurty words. Then made up a lie to get that person sacked.

And I believe he was able to get advice from someone at the BMA over the Christmas break, how convenient. I wonder who that someone might be?
We know the BMA disagrees with Cass and opposes the ban on puberty blockers.

Notfinanciallyresponsibleforyou · 18/07/2025 21:41

RedToothBrush · 18/07/2025 21:34

Well to be fair, neither does who ever is writing statements on behalf of NHS Fife.

They thought they'd be out the door and in the pub by 4 .30pm but it didn't quite work out that way.

There is a suggestion that they were in the pub beforehand and that’s caused the problem. Or senior staff dashed out early doors leaving the summer work experience guy Timmy in charge of the web site

mrshoho · 18/07/2025 21:44

Notfinanciallyresponsibleforyou · 18/07/2025 21:38

we all thank you for your service 🥂

@nauticant should definitely be written in to the future tv series.And Bez and the others who have kept these threads going. What a saga!

ickky · 18/07/2025 21:48

@KnottyAuty

Don't be ridiculous. If we know nothing else we know Fife despise a paper trail for official business - unless it is a rogue consultant emailing the shit out of unproven allegations to as many colleagues as will fit in a cc box

😂😂😂

Boiledbeetle · 18/07/2025 21:51

borntobequiet · 18/07/2025 21:40

And I believe he was able to get advice from someone at the BMA over the Christmas break, how convenient. I wonder who that someone might be?
We know the BMA disagrees with Cass and opposes the ban on puberty blockers.

Didn't one of the two, think it was the first one, say she gave him a number for the BMA?

Or did I imagine that bit?

It's been a long day!

NotAtMyAge · 18/07/2025 21:52

I've just saved the NHS Fife statement with the Sex Matters paragraph as an HTML document to show what it looked like at 9.45pm, since it seems almost certain that once I close the tab in my browser it will be different when I try to open it again. Perhaps someone should tell NHS Fife that playing silly beggars with revised versions is pointless since we've all seen the earlier versions and they will all have been saved in one way or another.

Waitwhat23 · 18/07/2025 21:59

mrshoho · 18/07/2025 21:44

@nauticant should definitely be written in to the future tv series.And Bez and the others who have kept these threads going. What a saga!

I imagine Nauticant's depiction as a mix between a super computer genius and a D&D Dungeon Master, steering us all through this epic adventure.

Bez I see as a narrator casually sitting on a chair at the side of the stage, making wry, casual bon mots while taking occasional nonchalant drags off a cigarette.

CriticalCondition · 18/07/2025 22:01

borntobequiet · 18/07/2025 21:40

And I believe he was able to get advice from someone at the BMA over the Christmas break, how convenient. I wonder who that someone might be?
We know the BMA disagrees with Cass and opposes the ban on puberty blockers.

Yes. In fact that idea seems to have come from Elspeth Pitt. She said today (presumably after he had got his sobbing under control) that she signposted him to the BMA peer support service.

Needspaceforlego · 18/07/2025 22:05

borntobequiet · 18/07/2025 21:40

And I believe he was able to get advice from someone at the BMA over the Christmas break, how convenient. I wonder who that someone might be?
We know the BMA disagrees with Cass and opposes the ban on puberty blockers.

He obviously has friends in high places.
Uptons ass appears to have been protected at all cost....the bills not totalled yet!

Peregrina · 18/07/2025 22:19

Can Naomi sue NHS Fife for defamation, with their missive implying that she was being unprofessional?

AAT65 · 18/07/2025 22:24

Peregrina · 18/07/2025 22:19

Can Naomi sue NHS Fife for defamation, with their missive implying that she was being unprofessional?

Would love to see Fife having to make an appropriate offer to make amends!

Catiette · 18/07/2025 22:25

Wow. About 10 pages behind still, but before the thread ends - what a jaw-dropping day. Thanks again to all for the energetic Tweets-pasting, Fifian translations and sinister glowing rings, legal explanations - and so many laugh-out-loud comments (which we really, really need, because it's just... no words left, really...) And of course Nauticant - how could I miss you? Thanks, all.

PS Will complain to the BBC about recent headlines. Again. I think this is actually some of the worst bias I've seen from them, because whereas earlier instances relied on mangled newspeak (transwoman, female etc.) disguising the story in question, this is more like totally sidestepping the central public-interest story about Fife's institutional capture and incompetence.

INeedAPensieve · 18/07/2025 22:30

I'm almost caught up on this thread now! And the one before! My god what a day! I actually can't believe NHS Fife released that shit show of a statement.

I'm also imagining a Malcolm Tucker type person behind the scenes bellowing at everyone for their stupidity.

However it's looking more and more like all management and even a good chunk of the doctors and consultants at NHS Fife are true believers of gender woo. Which worries me as they really should have a better grasp of science and biological facts.

Peregrina · 18/07/2025 22:31

I'm almost caught up on this thread now! And the one before! My god what a day! I actually can't believe NHS Fife released that shit show of a statement.

But another one has already started and it's beginning to run away.....

Catiette · 18/07/2025 22:38

Gah! I can't afford to go to bed, can I? And I'd worked SO hard today to catch up. 😧 At one point, I was counting the pages between the one I was reading and wherever the thread cheetahs were posting, and you were writing more quickly than I could skim.

Stop! Stoooop!

No, breathe, it's OK, the weekend will help.

But next week? I'm already feeling panicky. Whatever I try, I know I'll be trailing at least 4 by Wednesday...

lcakethereforeIam · 18/07/2025 22:40

Didn't Upton claim that he suffered because he was in a same sex relationship, discussed upthread, and because of being a woman in a male dominated profession? Can't recall the exact wording.

prh47bridge · 18/07/2025 22:42

Peregrina · 18/07/2025 22:19

Can Naomi sue NHS Fife for defamation, with their missive implying that she was being unprofessional?

Potentially, yes.

Lougle · 18/07/2025 22:44

It's so bad that you have to wonder if it's deliberate.

GreenFriedTomato · 18/07/2025 22:51

Why did NHS Fife seek to restrict Tribunal Tweets, and public access to live proceedings from the tribunal?
Following the end of the earlier tribunal hearings in February 2025, NHS Fife’s legal representatives were contacted by the Employment Tribunal and asked to provide comment on tweets by the Tribunal Tweets account on the X platform after a complaint by a member of the public. The account had originally been granted permission to live-tweet proceedings on the basis their reporting would be ‘fair and accurate’. The Health Board’s legal representatives analysed the tweets and highlighted several inaccuracies to the tribunal.
The tribunal subsequently ruled that Tribunal Tweets would be allowed to continue live reporting of the case; however, did state “It is a matter of concern nevertheless that mistakes were made, including writing a comment not by a witness or participant, but another observer, for example. The Tribunal reserves its position should further matters be brought to its attention, and the conditions for live tweeting provided previously are further breached”.
During the initial phase of proceedings there were also issues and disruption with the livestream due to the significant number of people granted access. To assist the smooth running of proceedings, our legal representatives sought to limit the stream to media as a means of reducing the opportunity for further disruption and interruptions. The livestream was disabled by the tribunal administrators for a time during the February hearing, because of these issues. The tribunal has since confirmed that it will continue to open the livestream to all that can be accommodated, for the July hearing dates, having implemented certain measures in this regard.

Wrt to any attempts to ban TT and remote viewing, I doubt they will be successful. The identities of the people involved are already in the public domain. TT can hardly be blamed for any loons sending threats. Other media are reporting on the case.

And with regard to remote viewing. Mics have been disabled so there is no possibility of disruption by anyone viewing remotely.

JR sounded like she was pushing for the tribunal to be heard in private but given the above, I can't see this happening..

Tweakie123 · 18/07/2025 22:52

NebulousSupportPostcard · 18/07/2025 18:43

While NHSFife can't force Sandie to settle, they could stop calling witnesses and then the case would move swiftly to the forensic phone witness and the 2 days of submissions.

They chose to send the witnesses in this week to have a last go at smearing Sandie's name. One of the witnesses even told their own lawyer that what she was being asked to repeat was only hearsay.

NHSFife chose this week's court appearances, and the statement is well out of order.

This is the main thing i think im struggling to understand... that these witnesses are meant to be defending NHS Fife. Do they actually really believe this is a valid defence??

MelodyMalone · 18/07/2025 22:55

lcakethereforeIam · 18/07/2025 22:40

Didn't Upton claim that he suffered because he was in a same sex relationship, discussed upthread, and because of being a woman in a male dominated profession? Can't recall the exact wording.

It's not even a male dominated profession anymore - there are now more female than male doctors in the UK.

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