NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #27

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions wereFri provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25
Thread 26: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5335861-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-26

I don't think they're trying to hide anything. I think that social media and online communities are a million miles away from the world that most of these people inhabit.

I know this post will get lost and some posters will disagree but I am going to ask posters to remember Isla Bumba is a young woman.

She should not become Fife’s scapegoat. The Board and senior managers recruited her, they supported her actions, they did not follow their own suspension and grievance/disciplinary processes.

That was unclear. I meant dialing back if I'm granted access and am viewing remotely. If I don't get access I'll chat more freely.

I agree about Isla Bumba. Although how I comment will depend on how much zealotry she displays.

I completely agree.

This debacle doesn’t end solely at her door. Lots of other people enabled this.

Is she giving evidence? I would have thought it was another MW situation, and IB needs to be kept well away from that courtroom.

I’m sure that Dr U is just as arrogant and self absorbed as RMW, and will continue to use the ladies loo.

Is Upton somatically female, as well…I can’t keep up? 🙄

Completely agree, but I wonder whether she is about to become part of a political storm?

Just the fact of her salary, age and lack of expertise will symbolise a dysfunctional NHS.

Or are politicians likely to hold fire until after the judgement?

She was getting paid at band 7 (2 pay bands above Sandie Peggie) to promote equality diversity and inclusion. It was her job to know and understand equality law and advise the Trust in how to implement that, not to assume that what Stonewall want is the law. She did not properly do the job she was paid to do and should be held to account for the consequences of that.

Now obviously she's far from the only person at fault at Fife, but this was her job.

If you create a job and don't understand what it's for or who's qualified to do it, you need to take some of the responsibility when the job and its incumbent both turn out to be liabilities.

I think of the many young women working in genuinely demanding roles in the health service (and in education, which I know better), who are paid far less and held to account on a daily basis in various ways and feel very little sympathy for her, though I agree she should not be a scapegoat.

I’ve been a member of CLAW all this time, and didn’t even realise. <happy sigh>

It’s truly remarkable how hard they are finding it to enact the SC clarification. The status quo worked pretty well, and pretty easily, for generations- particularly at discriminating against women.

Suddenly now it’s hard to know how to manage a situation where woman means woman.

Just the fact that this was possible feeds into the idea that the NHS is a bureaucracy that wastes money.

I understand that Reform led councils assumed they could save money by cutting similar posts, but found they didn’t exist.

However, this seems to be a prime example of what they thought they would find.

https://archive.is/YlTjo

Kevin McKenna from the Herald not pulling any punches.

Probably stupid question but are we better not commenting at all on here during the day and convening at 4pm to discuss the days events, in order to avoid any accusations of discussing at inappropriate times or is that just too unwieldy?

You are right and I hope she has her own Arse Protection in place.

At the end of the day, she is responsible for her own work and has it seems, significantly contributed to SPs situation and therefore this tribunal. Her fate might be an object lesson to others that "nobody got in trouble by following the law".

I am more concerned with the leadership being held to account than IB but it was a group effort of Fucking Around that led us here and let's see how the Finding Out is distributed.

This seems like a very good idea - how about we all try to discuss only in the breaks?

Not only will it be more obviously within the rules but also make the threads easier to follow and also I might get some work done rather than refreshing for FOMO

Thanks @nauticant for your amazing thread management

I’ve met a lot of Isla Bumbas. My sympathies are running short. The Isla Bumba in my organisation has been repeatedly told her information is wrong but she persists.

Thats harsh - if the first minister and the entire government and NHS have set the context in which you work then one sole graduate is hardly able to withstand that are they? Remember that all the staff jobs are contingent on agreeing with this stuff

Indeed. I’m Band 6 nurse, I work incredibly hard for, frankly, shit money and if I don’t do my job properly, I’ll be accountable and in a worst case scenario would be standing in front of a coroner, god forbid. So truthfully I have very little sympathy for a woke kiddo fresh out of uni spouting legally incorrect advice that have affected a woman to a degree SP was affected and being handsomely paid for that as well. This seem to be the issue with most of civil service, NHS included - zero accountability.

That is a great article. Thanks for posting it.

Searing!!

You can take your pick of the most startling exchanges during the first hearing of this tribunal. I found this statement by Dr Upton to be the most worrying. “Biological sex is a nebulous term and doesn’t really mean anything,” Dr Upton said. “Nobody can actually define biological sex.”

I believe that what this really means is: “Female is a nebulous term and doesn’t mean anything”. Coming from a fully-qualified doctor of medicine, this is deeply troubling. Yet, the most iniquitous aspect of these proceedings lies in something else: that they and their employers were most probably emboldened to act like this because the First Minister of this country and his two predecessors believe exactly as they do.

They sit at the apex of a vast inter-dependent system of patronage that seeps into every crevice of civic Scotland. This is reinforced by every promotion, every emolument, every cash dividend handed to those groups which twigged early on that advocating for it was the quickest way to taxpayers' money for their organisations.

and later

Certainly, you can say that the Supreme Court verdict ultimately gives Sandie Peggie a lifeline should she lose her case. This, though, must be measured against an awful truth that now confronts Scotland: that most of its political class, and its thousands of public servants, believe that ‘woman’ is a “nebulous term” that 'doesn’t really mean anything'.

Scotland’s governing class are like cockroaches. No matter how unintelligent, craven, unprincipled and dishonest they are, they will always thrive. They’ve managed to create refuges whose true nature is hidden from the public and which will always welcome them and sustain them.

ouch!
thanks for posting

I think it’s twofold.

1. The Judge and the clerk didn’t like the amount of observers. I expect it was tricky to manage.
2. The Judge was seriously pissed off with the interruptions. Especially the type of interruptions that we saw. They were blatantly done to be as annoying as possible. They had TRA fingerprints all over them.

These sorts of roles are only created because of an existing culture, in which there is a lot of performative corporate shite about diversity, inclusion and equality, but the reality does not necessarily match up. Bumba shouldn't be fired, the role simply shouldn't exist at all. HR is supposed to keep the workplace safe and legally compliant.

Bumba was foolish (why did she not consult a legal expert??) but it would be totally unfair for this to be laid entirely at her door, as if this was a safe, sensible place to work until she came along and overthrew it all. It was also foolish to depend on her for this. She's a cog in the machine, a product of the whole insanity, and she can't be blamed for the cockup that was having her established in the first place. Pretty much everywhere thought Stonewall knew what they were talking about.

Thanks for the correction @Harassedevictee

It's good to see that the Civil Service/public agencies are recognising its equality duties. I've contributed to Andreas Mueller's gardening efforts so it's good that there is also other support.

But these organisations are still having to spend scarce resources pandering to people who are anti-woman and anti-feminist. They've been lied to by Stonewall et al, but the agencies should have nipped such complaints in the bud. The SEEN networks are lawful and should be included as part of any organisation's equality duty.

Out of interest, did the tribunal publicise the deadline for requests?