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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #27

1000 replies

nauticant · 13/07/2025 08:26

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions wereFri provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25
Thread 26: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5335861-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-26

OP posts:
Thread gallery
12
Nameychangington · 15/07/2025 09:30

KnottyAuty · 15/07/2025 08:32

Thats harsh - if the first minister and the entire government and NHS have set the context in which you work then one sole graduate is hardly able to withstand that are they? Remember that all the staff jobs are contingent on agreeing with this stuff

Well if she didn't know the law she could have sought advice, eg from the Trust's lawyer - and maybe she did and they will be on the hook not her, we don't know. If they'd misinformed her of the law, they're now in trouble and she's in the clear.It doesn't seem like she knew the law or checked what it was though. I do know how pervasive gender ideology is in the NHS , I work in a captured Trust. But she perpetuated the harms in her role, ok 'just following orders' gets you so far, but she was in a position of responsibility and was part of giving the orders.

She could have spent her days implementing reasonable adjustments in job interviews for dyslexics, or writing policies for how to support staff fasting during Ramadan, or any number of DEI interventions which could actually have promoted DEI. Maybe she did, I don't know. But what I'm saying is, she could have covered her own arse on this, and because she didn't she's now in the firing line. Whether she's a true believer or a useful idiot she still has to take responsibility for things she did as part of her job role. If your job involves knowing and implementing the law, you need to do that, not assume what other people say is true is actually true. A nurse making an equivalent level of mistake would probably be struck off.

nauticant · 15/07/2025 09:31

ChimpanzeeThatMonkeyNews · 15/07/2025 09:28

Out of interest, did the tribunal publicise the deadline for requests?

It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying Beware of the Leopard.

OP posts:
guinnessguzzler · 15/07/2025 09:36

'This seem to be the issue with most of civil service, NHS included - zero accountability.' - agree with this entirely @zaraza

I don't believe in scapegoating and absolutely agree with those noting that this was an entire culture, clearly coming from the top. However, if we want genuine accountability, we need to expect it at all levels. If people work their way up rarely being held to account, why would they expect it to be any different once they reach more senior roles? And by then they'll be in bad habits and used to getting away with stuff.

ChimpanzeeThatMonkeyNews · 15/07/2025 09:48

nauticant · 15/07/2025 09:31

It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying Beware of the Leopard.

Ahh! Gotcha!

LarkLaneAgain · 15/07/2025 09:55

RhymesWithOrange · 15/07/2025 08:31

I’ve met a lot of Isla Bumbas. My sympathies are running short. The Isla Bumba in my organisation has been repeatedly told her information is wrong but she persists.

I agree. She was/is paid well for her role. She's not some shrinking violet intern.

Being a young woman doesn't give her a free pass from robust criticism if she allowed an older woman employee to be thrown under the Upton vanity bus. I'll see what she has to say for herself.

If she proves an opinionated, badly informed arse, who didn't give a toss for Sandie's welfare, being kind to Bumba because of her age doesn't wash with me. I'll comment on her behaviour and advice and how it affected the treatment of the applicant.

RhymesWithOrange · 15/07/2025 10:06

At some point, as a well-paid, educated and experienced professional, you need to stand up for what you think is right. Wilful ignorance is not a defence.

Bumba was very happy to take her pay checks while shoving Sandie under a bus. Of course she shouldn't have her life destroyed but she should be held to the appropriate professional standards.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/07/2025 10:18

ParmaVioletTea · 15/07/2025 08:54

Thanks for the correction @Harassedevictee

It's good to see that the Civil Service/public agencies are recognising its equality duties. I've contributed to Andreas Mueller's gardening efforts so it's good that there is also other support.

But these organisations are still having to spend scarce resources pandering to people who are anti-woman and anti-feminist. They've been lied to by Stonewall et al, but the agencies should have nipped such complaints in the bud. The SEEN networks are lawful and should be included as part of any organisation's equality duty.

I don’t even know what these people are expecting from this. A ruling that gender critical people shouldn’t be allowed to organise? Good luck with that, given Forstater and Higgs.

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 15/07/2025 10:20

KnottyAuty · 15/07/2025 08:44

Searing!!

You can take your pick of the most startling exchanges during the first hearing of this tribunal. I found this statement by Dr Upton to be the most worrying. “Biological sex is a nebulous term and doesn’t really mean anything,” Dr Upton said. “Nobody can actually define biological sex.”

I believe that what this really means is: “Female is a nebulous term and doesn’t mean anything”. Coming from a fully-qualified doctor of medicine, this is deeply troubling. Yet, the most iniquitous aspect of these proceedings lies in something else: that they and their employers were most probably emboldened to act like this because the First Minister of this country and his two predecessors believe exactly as they do.

They sit at the apex of a vast inter-dependent system of patronage that seeps into every crevice of civic Scotland. This is reinforced by every promotion, every emolument, every cash dividend handed to those groups which twigged early on that advocating for it was the quickest way to taxpayers' money for their organisations.

and later

Certainly, you can say that the Supreme Court verdict ultimately gives Sandie Peggie a lifeline should she lose her case. This, though, must be measured against an awful truth that now confronts Scotland: that most of its political class, and its thousands of public servants, believe that ‘woman’ is a “nebulous term” that 'doesn’t really mean anything'.

Scotland’s governing class are like cockroaches. No matter how unintelligent, craven, unprincipled and dishonest they are, they will always thrive. They’ve managed to create refuges whose true nature is hidden from the public and which will always welcome them and sustain them.

ouch!
thanks for posting

Yes, it's a very pointed article. I note, though, that it shows how embedded trans identity think is in society. "Assigned at birth" never made any sense except for a few mistakes over DSDs, but it's still trotted out by people who actually know better. While I'm being critical, I also think in his lambasting of politicians he has forgotten Tess White, for example, who has stood up for women.

MarieDeGournay · 15/07/2025 10:28

46 Other journalists, commentators and members of the public who are observing a hearing, whether in person or remotely, and who wish to use live, text based communications during the hearing..

My best attempt at interpreting this is that it only applies to those of us who have remote access.

Anybody following it on TT are not 'observing' either in person or remotely, they are accessing TT which has prior permission.

Does this seem correct: no live 'tweeting' by actual remote observers, but it is OK for non-observers to share and discuss TT posts?

PutThe · 15/07/2025 10:29

ChimpanzeeThatMonkeyNews · 15/07/2025 07:17

I completely agree.

This debacle doesn’t end solely at her door. Lots of other people enabled this.

Same. The institutional structures involved shouldn't be allowed to shift all the blame onto one employee.

nauticant · 15/07/2025 10:34

Does this seem correct: no live 'tweeting' by actual remote observers, but it is OK for non-observers to share and discuss TT posts?

That's how I understand it. Where "tweeting" probably applies to posting on here. Unless permission has been obtained from the Tribunal beforehand that is.

So we might end up with TT followers having a good old natter here with those observing having to keep tight-lipped until there are breaks or, probably better, the end of the day comes.

OP posts:
LarkLaneAgain · 15/07/2025 10:49

I'm looking forward to more excellent reporting from the local newspaper.
Now there was a young person who knew what they were doing. Remember the work experience reporter's headines? Brilliant.

Signalbox · 15/07/2025 10:52

Has anyone heard back about whether or not they have been granted remote access yet?

NebulousDog · 15/07/2025 10:55

That was my understanding of the order, Nauticant. I suppose it is to stop there being any accusation that it was unfair because Person X was commenting on the way that a witness was answering the questions or their personal appearance (and their ability to refute it)?

I'm not a lawyer, but maybe it is in order to be "similar" to a court proceeding where no photos etc allowed.

I used to get massively behind trying to follow TT and MN at the same time, but these threads added a lot of clarity to the TT tweets.

KnottyAuty · 15/07/2025 10:58

Nameychangington · 15/07/2025 09:30

Well if she didn't know the law she could have sought advice, eg from the Trust's lawyer - and maybe she did and they will be on the hook not her, we don't know. If they'd misinformed her of the law, they're now in trouble and she's in the clear.It doesn't seem like she knew the law or checked what it was though. I do know how pervasive gender ideology is in the NHS , I work in a captured Trust. But she perpetuated the harms in her role, ok 'just following orders' gets you so far, but she was in a position of responsibility and was part of giving the orders.

She could have spent her days implementing reasonable adjustments in job interviews for dyslexics, or writing policies for how to support staff fasting during Ramadan, or any number of DEI interventions which could actually have promoted DEI. Maybe she did, I don't know. But what I'm saying is, she could have covered her own arse on this, and because she didn't she's now in the firing line. Whether she's a true believer or a useful idiot she still has to take responsibility for things she did as part of her job role. If your job involves knowing and implementing the law, you need to do that, not assume what other people say is true is actually true. A nurse making an equivalent level of mistake would probably be struck off.

I think we have to wait for her evidence. There was no written policy so that doesn't give much to go on. I can't wait to find out whether she is TRA/TERF/Naif

SirChenjins · 15/07/2025 11:17

Are NHS staff included in 'public servants'? If so, I take exception to this claim. This, though, must be measured against an awful truth that now confronts Scotland: that most of its political class, and its thousands of public servants, believe that ‘woman’ is a “nebulous term” that 'doesn’t really mean anything'.

I work for an NHS Board in Scotland, and while there are undoubtedly people in the organisation (and across other NHS organisations) who believe woman is a nebulous term, the vast majority of us don't use pronouns, know sex is immutable and from informal conversations, appear firmly on the side of SP. Don't forget that NHSS has an ageing population that's predominantly female so far more inclined to believe facts than fiction.

cigarsmokingwoman · 15/07/2025 12:12

I've met a lot of Isla Bumba's in my time too - full of importance, their way is the right way, over paid, far too young for the salary/responsibilities they have.
Whilst she's part of a bigger problem at NHS Fife, her role and the impact it had on Sandie needs to be observed and act as a lesson to other organisations when it comes to who they recruit into DEI roles and what their actual job is.
Is Isla Bumba giving evidence? I'd particularly like to see/hear what she has to say to defend herself.

saveforthat · 15/07/2025 12:21

I wonder when the tribunal links will be sent to the successful applicants. Surely at least a few of us will fall into "first come first served" ?

anyolddinosaur · 15/07/2025 12:34

My take is that those attending in person can discuss TT as well as anyone else, they just cant add anything that TT hasnt said.

Btw FIFE would be Fucking Idiots Finally Exposed if it was an acronym - could pretend it's so you know I'm not AI though.

Kate Searle was clinical supervisor for Upton at the time of his complaints. His registration now shows Christopher McKenna as the responsible officer. I think that's a change and have been trying to see if there were any contemporaneous notes on these threads - not so far but I'm only up to 13. However it has reminded me that Kate Searle was included in NHS Fife's request for anonymity before the tribunal, the only witness apart from Upton included in that request, and that they subsequently asked for her to give evidence in private. Both requests were refused.

Merrymouse · 15/07/2025 12:34

RhymesWithOrange · 15/07/2025 10:06

At some point, as a well-paid, educated and experienced professional, you need to stand up for what you think is right. Wilful ignorance is not a defence.

Bumba was very happy to take her pay checks while shoving Sandie under a bus. Of course she shouldn't have her life destroyed but she should be held to the appropriate professional standards.

Part of the problem is that I don't think she had any professional standards to uphold.

I still can't quite work out how they created a band 7 job that seemed to require no specific training and could be undertaken by a 27 year old.

I suppose it was because the job had to fit into a particular space in the organisational chart?

I think that from her point of view the best course of action is to admit that she didn't know what she didn't know.

PutThe · 15/07/2025 12:45

Merrymouse · 15/07/2025 12:34

Part of the problem is that I don't think she had any professional standards to uphold.

I still can't quite work out how they created a band 7 job that seemed to require no specific training and could be undertaken by a 27 year old.

I suppose it was because the job had to fit into a particular space in the organisational chart?

I think that from her point of view the best course of action is to admit that she didn't know what she didn't know.

Agreed.

saveforthat · 15/07/2025 12:54

I've just received my link for tomorrow!

PrettyDamnCosmic · 15/07/2025 12:55

anyolddinosaur · 15/07/2025 12:34

My take is that those attending in person can discuss TT as well as anyone else, they just cant add anything that TT hasnt said.

Btw FIFE would be Fucking Idiots Finally Exposed if it was an acronym - could pretend it's so you know I'm not AI though.

Kate Searle was clinical supervisor for Upton at the time of his complaints. His registration now shows Christopher McKenna as the responsible officer. I think that's a change and have been trying to see if there were any contemporaneous notes on these threads - not so far but I'm only up to 13. However it has reminded me that Kate Searle was included in NHS Fife's request for anonymity before the tribunal, the only witness apart from Upton included in that request, and that they subsequently asked for her to give evidence in private. Both requests were refused.

You have misunderstood the roles of Clinical Supervisor & Responsible Officer. The Clinical Supervisor is literally the consultant in your department who supervises your clinical practice. All the junior doctors in A&E will have been divvied up between the A&E consultants.
The Responsible Officer is the named individual in the Responsible Body (normally the NHS organisation employing the doctor) who reports back to the GMC regarding the a doctor's annual appraisal as part of the revalidation process. Doctors in training posts don't have an appraisal as such but a similar process called Annual Review of Competence Progression (ARCP).
It's normal for the Medical Director in the Trust to be the Responsible Officer but it's an automated process & the Responsible Officer doesn't have need to have any contact with the doctor in question. It's likely that Christopher McKenna has been Upton's RO since he joined Fife but had never even heard his name until the Sandie Peggie case unfolded.

ChimpanzeeThatMonkeyNews · 15/07/2025 12:55

Show off! 😉

Toasterkettleairfryer · 15/07/2025 12:55

I have online access!!

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