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Original poster

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #27

1000 replies

nauticant · 13/07/2025 08:26

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions wereFri provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

OP posts:

Thread gallery

ThreeWordHarpy · 14/07/2025 21:02

It's not that we can't discuss it at all, just that those who have the ability to watch online should refrain from commenting until the hearing is on a break/lunch/end of day. As they would if they were present in person. Everyone else can read TT and and discuss that as it happens. It's really not a big deal and will probably make these threads easier to follow. Fewer cryptic, reactive posts going "oooh" and nothing else. (I may have been guilty myself of these)

ickky · 14/07/2025 21:09

I suppose we will have to follow El Presidente orders. 😡

I could paste TT's tweets as they happen and we could then blaspheme at will?

ickky · 14/07/2025 21:11

nauticant · Today 19:14
That's fine. All I need to do is to instruct posters not to run away with posting on this thread meaning that we're on to thread #28 before 10am on Wednesday.
😂

You will probably need to post thread 28 tomorrow.

Anyone taking bets?

prh47bridge · 14/07/2025 21:12

Bannedontherun · 14/07/2025 20:07

@prh47bridge Hi regarding the discussion above what is your advice please

I think the guidance is vague and unworkable. However, I agree that the safest thing for those watching it live is to avoid posting on here while the hearings are in progress. It should be safe to post in the lunch break and at the end of the day. If you are following the hearing on TT or similar, feel free to post whatever you want. If the judge says something different to that, listen to the judge.

CriticalCondition · 14/07/2025 21:31

Frankly I think TRAs are going to try and disrupt these threads, and the proceedings of the tribunal, by reporting them regardless of whether there are genuine grounds to believe there is any contravention of the order.

It'll be the Mark 2 version of the hairdryer in the hearing.

alsoFanOfNaomi · 14/07/2025 21:37

Well, never mind. If that happens, and it turns out we can't discuss it here as it happens, let's all just keep notes to discuss when it's all over. The important thing is that it happens and - I hope - comes to the right conclusion.

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 14/07/2025 21:40

alsoFanOfNaomi · 14/07/2025 21:37

Precisely. If we want to show support to SP, then we would be best adhering to the rules.

Hopefully there'll be an archive for those of us who can't watch or discuss in real time.

ChimpanzeeThatMonkeyNews · 14/07/2025 21:43

CriticalCondition · 14/07/2025 21:31

It'll be the Mark 2 version of the hairdryer in the hearing.

And the TRAs get their own way. If they misbehave and break the rules, then none of us get to observe the hearing.

Which is exactly what his team wanted in the first place.

Igneococcus · 14/07/2025 22:03

"SNP ministers ‘review’ trans ruling to avoid new legal action"
"The Scottish government said: “We have made clear that we accept the Supreme Court ruling and since April have been taking forward the detailed work that is necessary as a consequence of the ruling. That work is ongoing.”"

Seriously, how do they think they'd manage setting up an independent Scotland when they can't cope with implementing one clarification of existing law?

https://www.thetimes.com/article/2aa011f1-f738-4937-8178-2f50de74d91d?shareToken=72ea4269afa40ce77998071129c78757

SNP ministers ‘review’ trans ruling to avoid new legal action

Sex Matters group threatens further court case but officials insist it is neither appropriate nor straightforward to withdraw or amend current policy

https://www.thetimes.com/article/2aa011f1-f738-4937-8178-2f50de74d91d?shareToken=72ea4269afa40ce77998071129c78757

Peregrina · 14/07/2025 22:11

What I would like to know is which loos will Dr Upton and his TiM chums try to use when the Tribunal recommences? The Supreme Court ruling was crystal clear on this matter.

KnottyAuty · 14/07/2025 22:16

Igneococcus · 14/07/2025 22:03

Seriously, how do they think they'd manage setting up an independent Scotland when they can't cope with implementing one clarification of existing law?

https://www.thetimes.com/article/2aa011f1-f738-4937-8178-2f50de74d91d?shareToken=72ea4269afa40ce77998071129c78757

Seriously, how do they think they'd manage setting up an independent Scotland when they can't cope with implementing one clarification of existing law?

Or - How do they think they'd manage an independent Scotland when they cannae get the laddies oot the lassies'?!

GCITC · 14/07/2025 23:01

nauticant · 14/07/2025 17:28

That's a highly relevant observation. Here's paragraph 46:

46 Other journalists, commentators and members of the public who are observing a hearing, whether in person or remotely, and who wish to use live, text based communications during the hearing, must apply to the Tribunal for permission. That application should be made in advance of the hearing if possible. If the application is made on the day, it should be made to the clerk and not directly to the Tribunal. The application will be considered by the Tribunal at the next appropriate point in proceedings and may be refused if the Tribunal considers that such live communication may interfere with the administration of justice. There may be a delay in permission being granted if the application is made during the hearing.

Edited

Show quote history

Someone may have suggested this already, but if you are about Nauti, could you post this before each session as a reminder to any new posters.

Bannedontherun · 14/07/2025 23:11

prh47bridge · 14/07/2025 21:12

Show quote history

Yes thanks for that what i cannot understand is how a court could determine (upon an application) how an on line conversation, yet to happen may or may not interfere with the administration of justice.

Furthermore as far as i am aware an employment Tribunal does not have powers of contempt.

Bannedontherun · 14/07/2025 23:14

@nauticant Employment Tribunals in the UK and Scotland do not have the power of contempt, so the Tribunal can do nothing if we ignore this guidance, from the president.

Conxis · 14/07/2025 23:14

Peregrina · 14/07/2025 22:11

What I would like to know is which loos will Dr Upton and his TiM chums try to use when the Tribunal recommences? The Supreme Court ruling was crystal clear on this matter.

Will Upton even be there this time?

spannasaurus · 14/07/2025 23:15

Bannedontherun · 14/07/2025 23:14

@nauticant Employment Tribunals in the UK and Scotland do not have the power of contempt, so the Tribunal can do nothing if we ignore this guidance, from the president.

They can revoke remote access to the tribunal

Bannedontherun · 14/07/2025 23:22

spannasaurus · 14/07/2025 23:15

They can revoke remote access to the tribunal

Show quote history

Good point

spannasaurus · 14/07/2025 23:24

I also think this board will be monitored by people looking for anything that could be reported to the tribunal in the hope that remote access is withdrawn

prh47bridge · 14/07/2025 23:31

Bannedontherun · 14/07/2025 23:14

@nauticant Employment Tribunals in the UK and Scotland do not have the power of contempt, so the Tribunal can do nothing if we ignore this guidance, from the president.

This is wrong. An employment tribunal can refer any contempt of court to the High Court which can impose a prison sentence. There was a case where a claimant for constructive dismissal was found to have threatened and attempted to bribe witnesses and was sentenced to one month in prison for contempt. The tribunal definitely can do something if the guidance is ignored, although I suspect revocation of access is more likely than anyone being sent to prison.

I believe the goal of the guidance is to try and ensure that any online reporting is a reasonably accurate reflection of what happens in the tribunal. As I say, I think the guidance as written is vague to the point of being unworkable. Nonetheless, the safest approach is for everyone to comply with it as best they can.

Bannedontherun · 14/07/2025 23:33

prh47bridge · 14/07/2025 23:31

Show quote history

Thanks

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/07/2025 23:51

spannasaurus · 14/07/2025 23:24

I also think this board will be monitored by people looking for anything that could be reported to the tribunal in the hope that remote access is withdrawn

Yes, this is absolutely going to be the case. We’ve seen people try to stir about observers before in other cases.

Ineedtoseetobelieve32 · 15/07/2025 06:52

I think I must have missed some guidance somewhere and am gutted. Having watched the first part of the tribunal remotely earlier in the year after being peaked by you fantastic lot here, I applied for remote access using the same link on 26 June for the second part of the tribunal and received an email response on 27 June saying I needed to apply for access closer to the time - no other email address given or cut off.. Emailed again on 13 July (in accordance with their instructions) and have now received a response telling me I needed to have applied to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday
09 July. So now I’m too late to apply.. I’m furious - feels like a deliberate way to reduce numbers!

SidewaysOtter · 15/07/2025 06:53

Gosh, they really are going all in on restricting remote access to this, aren’t they? What is it about this case that they want so desperately to hide?

Harassedevictee · 15/07/2025 07:07

I think it’s more about the limitations of the ETs technical ability to allow observers.

99.9% of ETs will have minimal observers in person and remotely.

The only ETs that have this level of interest are GC ones and courts will not have the capacity for everyone to attend. They have organised 3 rooms as well as online access for 300.

Original poster

nauticant · 15/07/2025 07:08

I have two concerns. The first is the Tribunal revoking access. The second is trans activists rerporting to MNHQ telling them that somehow our discussion is in breach of something or other and as a result getting discussion banned for the duration of the hearing at least.

People will have to self-police but I'm going to dial-back my posting significantly while the Tribunal is in session.

OP posts:

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